I was just about to create a new topic to suggest this.
I would have called it "Track launch view", not to replace the current song mode, but to add an alternative view mode.
I am not familiar with Ableton, but with FL Studio and they also have a comparable view in the playlist when in Performance mode.
It would be nice to be able to zoom in/out, so you can make kind of a hybrid of the current song view and the suggested new mode. With this function you can make the width of every track for example 2 or 4 pads and you see the pads blinking for left to right like a cursor when that track is playing.
It would be nice if you could freely assign where you want each track, so everybody is happy (x/y discussion).
As a default, I would place every instrument (sound/kit/midi/cv channel) on the X axis and every different pattern on the Y axis, as you usually don't make that many patterns. And even if you do, you can just scroll down to see those patterns, but you still want to see all other instruments. Also, when scrolling down, only the instruments with more than 8 patterns should scroll down, the rest stays there. On this way, you keep as many tracks/patterns in the same view.
I would love this too! It would really be a great performance tool and we wouldn’t be restricted to a linear song timeline. I love the idea of launching scenes as opposed to pressing Play and being subjected to the tyranny of the linear timeline.
@alien_brain said:
my bet is that this song mode in 2.0 is THE answer to our song mode needs and there wont be another added. which is understandable! this thread should be retired as this concern has been addressed. and i like the idea put forth honestly, i just hope ir works as well as demonstrated. NEXT!
This is a great idea and I think would work brilliantly alongside the new arranger. I don't actually see the worth of the horizontal view as knowing the length of my track is less important than being able to easily manage multiple clips on one track. As much as a copy of ableton it would be, it would make so much sense.
Imagine each clip row was all specific colors. So row 1 is always blue whether it is track 1, 2 or 3, etc. Then when in arranger I can select which clip as per current functionality but will always know that blue refers to the first clip in the selected instrument row. Could be a lot to recode but what an amazing workflow this would bring.
Yes, it would make much more sense to see 16 tracks at once and 8 clips per track - 128 clip variations in total!! Currently we just can see 8 track OR 8 variations. Seems to be a no brainer to me.
I was really surprised to find out that I can't assign the same track to multiple session. Session A is drum, key1, bass1. Session B is drum (same track), key2, bass2. in music, like in programming, I like the DRY principle. Do Not Repeat yourself. In my mind the track to session assigment is a one to many relation, not one to one
I‘m curious because you wrote that you like the current song view, too. Why exactly? Honestly I currently just can see disadvantages (very bad overall overview). If it is track length (though in my case I don’t need to see them always, I trust my ears) there could be solutions to make them visible.
Yes, track length gives better idea what is in there and how it is built. As there are no any ways to name something in deluge - one has relay on ears and visual aids.
True there is no way to name but I think with lots of tracks it still isn't obvious what's what. Particularly is a lot of tracks are resamples.
In my mind one colomn representing a track is way more sensible. With colours representing individual clips. Then you know really clearly what you intend to arrange. I also find the current song mode a bit useless.
I also opened a thread about this, I think it would be an amazing idea. The page knob can also switch track pages, page one having tracks from 1-to16 and page 2 tracks 17-32 so forth and so on. Imagine the 128 pads all becoming patterns/clips/variations. So much useful space!
I also created a discussion on the facebook group page!
I truly hope this will be possible!
My respect to the team here - they are by far the most amazing team I have ever seen.
I've never used Ableton so have tended to glaze over a bit when reading this thread, also there seems to be several contradictory suggestions here, some of which have been covered off by the arranger view.
The picture above makes things much clearer so thanks, @vesnic, for doing that. I can see the advantages of this as an additional 'section view' and think it would make a great addition but I wouldn't want the existing session view replaced as I find it really useful to be able to compare track lengths and see how the timeline loops on different track variations.
@muleskinner said:
I've never used Ableton so have tended to glaze over a bit when reading this thread, also there seems to be several contradictory suggestions here, some of which have been covered off by the arranger view.
true.
“ableton view” is the view most users would be familiar with instantly. me too. still would love to try it.
recording to arranger would be very nice. has to work for the current song mode too imho.
still one of the highest voted threads. originated when there was no Arranger.
it came to my mind that Arranger view is something like Ableton view. Both views are grid based. In Ableton coumns represent instruments and rows represent patterns. In Arranger rows represent instruments and columns represent a linear timeline with Song sections and unique instances.
i dont think a new view is needed, though i d love to access 16 instuments at once instead of 8.
For the Ableton feel, what if:
Arranger lets you set markers, you can jump to (in longest section length sync). Parts between markers can be looped.
I don’t agree with you, amiga. A classic clip lauch view (like on Ableton or other sequencers) is still my biggest wish for the Deluge. The arranger is absolutely no alternative for this purpose. And set markers wouldn’t help either. I assume you never used Ableton (at least the clip launch view) so much, right?
@amiga909 said:
For the Ableton feel, what if:
Arranger lets you set markers, you can jump to (in longest section length sync). Parts between markers can be looped.
I suggested that with an example of how it might work here. For the way I work at least something like that would be a godsend. Please upvote this thread if you like that idea!
i don't think it's the same as what's being suggested on this thread though, which (as a non-Ableton user) seems to be more like the existing section view but with the ability to access a ton more tracks at once. I can see how this would really help live pattern switching.
I'm colorblind, so the current song view can get confusing as to which part is which. I might want to change my drum beat, but accidentally end up changing my melody, and so forth. The arranger is awesome and helps a bunch, but for Live performance, song mode is rather confusing.
With a vertical track setup, it would be much easier for me to memorize, track one is my drums, there's my 4 drum patterns, etc. Plus getting to view 16 tracks at once would be fantastic!
With the new AKAI Pro Force, I think this would be an even more important feature for the Deluge in order to not lose potential buyers.
Tbh, if the Force was there before I bought the Deluge, I would probably buy the Force, purely because of it using the full grid to launch clips.
Also, it seems to allow for multiple launch modes (instant, oneshot, synced to beat/bar etc), which in my opinion is also pretty important and basic features for a sequencer/groovebox made for live jamming.
I still have hope for the Deluge to implement these features in a future update though. Has Rohan made any comments on this yet?
@MPrinsen said:
Also, it seems to allow for multiple launch modes (instant, oneshot, synced to beat/bar etc), which in my opinion is also pretty important and basic features for a sequencer/groovebox made for live jamming.
I still have hope for the Deluge to implement these features in a future update though. Has Rohan made any comments on this yet?
If I was Rohan (and its a good thing I am not) I’d despair in disbelief throwing out a bloody masterpiece and getting back a mere “make it more Ableton”! 😉
No insult intended, I generally agree with the suggestion. I guess we agree on vensics pic http://forums.synthstrom.com/uploads/editor/la/9jk3f598acwg.jpg
so we had a way to mute/unmute128 tracks at once, would be so cool. Can be set up with a midi controller but very basic.
@MPrinsen said:
With the new AKAI Pro Force, I think this would be an even more important feature for the Deluge in order to not lose potential buyers.
That now would be a clever step from Rohan, yes. The funny thing is, that the Deluge could easily beat the Force (and all other contollers like APC, Novation, Push and so on...) in terms of a session/clip view, just because of its bigger matrix (displaying 16 tracks vs. just 8 tracks). When I was playing live with Ableton Push, it always has been annoying that I can’t launch i.e. track 1 and track 9 at the same simultaneously. I always needed to skip between track 1-8 and 9-16. AFAIK the Deluge’s 16x8 matrix is a unique feature in compare to all other machines. If I was the developer, I absolutely would make use of it.
Yes the picture exactly shows what most people are missing here. Though I guess you didn’t mean 128 tracks, right? In this case it would be 16 tracks and each track has 8 variations, so 128 variations (or clips). Of course you can scoll right/left and up/down to see more tracks and more clips.
Exactly!! The Deluge would defenitely beat the Force if this is ever going to happen!!! And I am very hopeful, since Rohan has shown to be really dedicated and added a lot of major features and improvements so far. Since this is one of the most requested features, there is a good chance Rohan will add this I guess
@Volt said:
Yes the picture exactly shows what most people are missing here. Though I guess you didn’t mean 128 tracks, right? In this case it would be 16 tracks and each track has 8 variations, so 128 variations (or clips). Of course you can scoll right/left and up/down to see more tracks and more clips.
i was using the terms as they are used in the Deluge manual. track is the correct ‘translation’ for clip.
what u mean with track is called instrument in the Deluge manual.
@MPrinsen said:
Exactly!! The Deluge would defenitely beat the Force if this is ever going to happen!!! And I am very hopeful, since Rohan has shown to be really dedicated and added a lot of major features and improvements so far. Since this is one of the most requested features, there is a good chance Rohan will add this I guess
its one of the most requested, yes. one thing is the thread was started before Arranger. another thing that it might never be implemented just because it is major change.
imho we could further discuss some details.
what do to with Sections? can i assign sections in the ‘Ableton view’?
what to do woth launch/audition columns, they are laid out for a 8-instrument workflow.
not sure if an additional 4th mode wont be overkill. Remove current Song mode?
For me personally, I wouldn’t care if it replaced the current song view. But, I know some people wouldn’t like it and also for being compatible with older projects, it should be an additional mode.
I think sections should not do anything in the “Ableton/session” view.
Instead of sections, you get the 2x8 pads on the right, of which 1 row of 8 could be a launch complete row function. Therefore, you should be able to easily move patterns up and down the grid and maybe also place 1 pattern on multiple positions in the grid in the same column.
The other row of 8 could act as a “unarm the complete row”, which makes them end their pattern and then stop looping.
Comments
Of course you speak for everyone on this forum which is why your posts get so many downvotes.
Personally I like to be able to see play position on different tracks as well, but I'm holding fire to see what Rohan has come up with for 2.0...
Noise, Noodles and Doodles: http://bit.ly/mrjonesthebutcher
I was just about to create a new topic to suggest this.
I would have called it "Track launch view", not to replace the current song mode, but to add an alternative view mode.
I am not familiar with Ableton, but with FL Studio and they also have a comparable view in the playlist when in Performance mode.
It would be nice to be able to zoom in/out, so you can make kind of a hybrid of the current song view and the suggested new mode. With this function you can make the width of every track for example 2 or 4 pads and you see the pads blinking for left to right like a cursor when that track is playing.
It would be nice if you could freely assign where you want each track, so everybody is happy (x/y discussion).
As a default, I would place every instrument (sound/kit/midi/cv channel) on the X axis and every different pattern on the Y axis, as you usually don't make that many patterns. And even if you do, you can just scroll down to see those patterns, but you still want to see all other instruments. Also, when scrolling down, only the instruments with more than 8 patterns should scroll down, the rest stays there. On this way, you keep as many tracks/patterns in the same view.
I would love this too! It would really be a great performance tool and we wouldn’t be restricted to a linear song timeline. I love the idea of launching scenes as opposed to pressing Play and being subjected to the tyranny of the linear timeline.
I agree with you here
This is a great idea and I think would work brilliantly alongside the new arranger. I don't actually see the worth of the horizontal view as knowing the length of my track is less important than being able to easily manage multiple clips on one track. As much as a copy of ableton it would be, it would make so much sense.
Imagine each clip row was all specific colors. So row 1 is always blue whether it is track 1, 2 or 3, etc. Then when in arranger I can select which clip as per current functionality but will always know that blue refers to the first clip in the selected instrument row. Could be a lot to recode but what an amazing workflow this would bring.
Yes, it would make much more sense to see 16 tracks at once and 8 clips per track - 128 clip variations in total!! Currently we just can see 8 track OR 8 variations. Seems to be a no brainer to me.
Agree, I think this will help improve working in arranger mode with this workflow in song mode. Hopefully more people will agree.
Hopefully Rohan agrees
maybe in 3.0
I was really surprised to find out that I can't assign the same track to multiple session. Session A is drum, key1, bass1. Session B is drum (same track), key2, bass2. in music, like in programming, I like the DRY principle. Do Not Repeat yourself. In my mind the track to session assigment is a one to many relation, not one to one
yes, but as option in global settings - as I actually like current song view too.
I‘m curious because you wrote that you like the current song view, too. Why exactly? Honestly I currently just can see disadvantages (very bad overall overview). If it is track length (though in my case I don’t need to see them always, I trust my ears) there could be solutions to make them visible.
Yes, track length gives better idea what is in there and how it is built. As there are no any ways to name something in deluge - one has relay on ears and visual aids.
True there is no way to name but I think with lots of tracks it still isn't obvious what's what. Particularly is a lot of tracks are resamples.
In my mind one colomn representing a track is way more sensible. With colours representing individual clips. Then you know really clearly what you intend to arrange. I also find the current song mode a bit useless.
I‘m in. Mixer view (fixed vertical tracks) like common sequencers would be immensely helpful for better overview and workflow.
I also opened a thread about this, I think it would be an amazing idea. The page knob can also switch track pages, page one having tracks from 1-to16 and page 2 tracks 17-32 so forth and so on. Imagine the 128 pads all becoming patterns/clips/variations. So much useful space!
I also created a discussion on the facebook group page!
I truly hope this will be possible!
My respect to the team here - they are by far the most amazing team I have ever seen.
I've never used Ableton so have tended to glaze over a bit when reading this thread, also there seems to be several contradictory suggestions here, some of which have been covered off by the arranger view.
The picture above makes things much clearer so thanks, @vesnic, for doing that. I can see the advantages of this as an additional 'section view' and think it would make a great addition but I wouldn't want the existing session view replaced as I find it really useful to be able to compare track lengths and see how the timeline loops on different track variations.
Noise, Noodles and Doodles: http://bit.ly/mrjonesthebutcher
Everyone who have ever attended a Deluge demo, with Ian, ears about this suggestion or similar, all the time!
Myself, believe that a good feature is:
Loop recording while playing live, like Ableton.
The MPC doesn't do it, the Deluge doesn't do it. Whoever adds this functionality will make history!
true.
“ableton view” is the view most users would be familiar with instantly. me too. still would love to try it.
recording to arranger would be very nice. has to work for the current song mode too imho.
as an additional song mode this would be perfekt! especially the way like in vesnic picture!
still one of the highest voted threads. originated when there was no Arranger.
it came to my mind that Arranger view is something like Ableton view. Both views are grid based. In Ableton coumns represent instruments and rows represent patterns. In Arranger rows represent instruments and columns represent a linear timeline with Song sections and unique instances.
i dont think a new view is needed, though i d love to access 16 instuments at once instead of 8.
For the Ableton feel, what if:
Arranger lets you set markers, you can jump to (in longest section length sync). Parts between markers can be looped.
I don’t agree with you, amiga. A classic clip lauch view (like on Ableton or other sequencers) is still my biggest wish for the Deluge. The arranger is absolutely no alternative for this purpose. And set markers wouldn’t help either. I assume you never used Ableton (at least the clip launch view) so much, right?
I suggested that with an example of how it might work here. For the way I work at least something like that would be a godsend. Please upvote this thread if you like that idea!
i don't think it's the same as what's being suggested on this thread though, which (as a non-Ableton user) seems to be more like the existing section view but with the ability to access a ton more tracks at once. I can see how this would really help live pattern switching.
Noise, Noodles and Doodles: http://bit.ly/mrjonesthebutcher
Big +1 from me!
I'm colorblind, so the current song view can get confusing as to which part is which. I might want to change my drum beat, but accidentally end up changing my melody, and so forth. The arranger is awesome and helps a bunch, but for Live performance, song mode is rather confusing.
With a vertical track setup, it would be much easier for me to memorize, track one is my drums, there's my 4 drum patterns, etc. Plus getting to view 16 tracks at once would be fantastic!
With the new AKAI Pro Force, I think this would be an even more important feature for the Deluge in order to not lose potential buyers.
Tbh, if the Force was there before I bought the Deluge, I would probably buy the Force, purely because of it using the full grid to launch clips.
Also, it seems to allow for multiple launch modes (instant, oneshot, synced to beat/bar etc), which in my opinion is also pretty important and basic features for a sequencer/groovebox made for live jamming.
I still have hope for the Deluge to implement these features in a future update though. Has Rohan made any comments on this yet?
If I was Rohan (and its a good thing I am not) I’d despair in disbelief throwing out a bloody masterpiece and getting back a mere “make it more Ableton”! 😉
No insult intended, I generally agree with the suggestion. I guess we agree on vensics pic http://forums.synthstrom.com/uploads/editor/la/9jk3f598acwg.jpg
so we had a way to mute/unmute128 tracks at once, would be so cool. Can be set up with a midi controller but very basic.
That now would be a clever step from Rohan, yes. The funny thing is, that the Deluge could easily beat the Force (and all other contollers like APC, Novation, Push and so on...) in terms of a session/clip view, just because of its bigger matrix (displaying 16 tracks vs. just 8 tracks). When I was playing live with Ableton Push, it always has been annoying that I can’t launch i.e. track 1 and track 9 at the same simultaneously. I always needed to skip between track 1-8 and 9-16. AFAIK the Deluge’s 16x8 matrix is a unique feature in compare to all other machines. If I was the developer, I absolutely would make use of it.
Yes the picture exactly shows what most people are missing here. Though I guess you didn’t mean 128 tracks, right?
In this case it would be 16 tracks and each track has 8 variations, so 128 variations (or clips). Of course you can scoll right/left and up/down to see more tracks and more clips.
Exactly!! The Deluge would defenitely beat the Force if this is ever going to happen!!! And I am very hopeful, since Rohan has shown to be really dedicated and added a lot of major features and improvements so far. Since this is one of the most requested features, there is a good chance Rohan will add this I guess
i was using the terms as they are used in the Deluge manual. track is the correct ‘translation’ for clip.
what u mean with track is called instrument in the Deluge manual.
its one of the most requested, yes. one thing is the thread was started before Arranger. another thing that it might never be implemented just because it is major change.
imho we could further discuss some details.
For me personally, I wouldn’t care if it replaced the current song view. But, I know some people wouldn’t like it and also for being compatible with older projects, it should be an additional mode.
I think sections should not do anything in the “Ableton/session” view.
Instead of sections, you get the 2x8 pads on the right, of which 1 row of 8 could be a launch complete row function. Therefore, you should be able to easily move patterns up and down the grid and maybe also place 1 pattern on multiple positions in the grid in the same column.
The other row of 8 could act as a “unarm the complete row”, which makes them end their pattern and then stop looping.