The Force looks very interesting for intuitive live use. But I must agree if the Deluge would get a similar launching workflow it could be much more interesting for a lot of people. Some friends of mine didn’t buy Deluge because of its current song mode (I don’t speak about arranger, this is cool!).
Amiga909, I don’t see why Deluge is just meant to have it’s current layout, the opposite is the case. Precisely because it has so much buttons and additionally the 16 buttons on the right hand side. Of course the mute/launch buttons would trigger a scene (horizontally line of clips). The audition/section buttons could do many things which the Force and other devices aren’t able to do. For example: There you could adjust the launch quantisation, or choosing colors for your clips, or my preferred function (and this would be a cool and unique feature of the Deluge): press and hold a clip (one of the 128 buttons) and then play eith the audition pads notes of your clips. This would have many advantages. For orientation you could HEAR which instrument is inside this track (instead of reading the patch number which isn’t representative for the kind of sound), then it’s perfectly for liveacts to play different sounds without always entering track view, and you also could record notes instantly without going to track view and so forth. Of course you could also use them to stop a scene as MPrinsen suggested. There are many possibilities!
Just a minor side note, because people often think that Ableton was the inventor of introducing the matrix style clip launching hardware: As far as I know the first inventor was Monome with their products 64, 128 and 256 - many years ago. After that there was Livid Instruments with their products. Then Akai „copied“ this idea with their APC40, then Novation copied Akai... Only then there was a collaboration between Akai and Ableton with Push 1. There is also NI Machine Jam which has that workflow. Push 2 was the first device which was made by Ableton exclusively.
So this is an old concept which was refreshed by many companies, because it’s just perfect. In this spirit: Go for it Synthstrom, show them the potential of the Deluge!
I don't actually see a clear advantage of ableton's session view over the standard left-to-right sequencer view, and also agree with @amiga909 that Deluge is designed to work this way, with the separation of the rightmost pads.
I think both workflows have strongs and weaknesses, but in this case it's a design choice from Synthstrom, part of the personality of the Deluge, and IMHO it's not a feature to be added when there are tons of features that would go a longer way to consolidate the Deluge as an instrument with it's own purpose.
Regarding the Force, I'll never get tired of saying that it takes too literally the "Ableton in a box" thing. I mean, yes, if what you personally need is just to physically get away from your computer, then it's ok-- But its main flaw is to be extremely generic by design, and to me thats the worst, because it's not pushing musicmaking forward to new boundaries, it's taking the tools that are already available and wrappíng them in shinny paper.
@MPrinsen said:
For me personally, I wouldn’t care if it replaced the current song view. But, I know some people wouldn’t like it and also for being compatible with older projects, it should be an additional mode.
I think sections should not do anything in the “Ableton/session” view.
Instead of sections, you get the 2x8 pads on the right, of which 1 row of 8 could be a launch complete row function. Therefore, you should be able to easily move patterns up and down the grid and maybe also place 1 pattern on multiple positions in the grid in the same column.
The other row of 8 could act as a “unarm the complete row”, which makes them end their pattern and then stop looping.
Yeah, I agree additional mode is hard to avoid because of backwards compatibility. Dont see myself using both modes though. But others may think differently. Long term a hard cut and replacement would be maybe better.
Don't think it is a good idea to leave Sections out of the game. Breaks the concept every track is assigned to a section. Allowing "Session view" its own white instances (as Arranger can do) seems crazy.
Sections (you can 12 if i am not mistaken) could be hard coded to the Audition row. So first row was section orange, second row section red, and so on. Pressing an Audition button would then match the "launch complete row function".
"maybe also place 1 pattern on multiple positions in the grid"
yeah, the track clone UX could work exactly the same in "Session view" as in current Song mode.
for the Mute Column
“unarm the complete row, end their pattern and then stop looping” doesnt seem very helpful for me.
it could be used to somehow designate the length or position of the longest track, so you get an indication how long a row/section is and where you are (to kinda keep that feature from current Song mode).
Ok you are right about the mute complete row. Instead of that, we can use those 8 pads for sections: hold shift and scroll up/down to scroll through the 12 sections. The tracks in the grid should get their section color when holding shift. When not holding shift, each column has a user customizable color, just like in ableton.
I agree, white instances shouldn’t be something for this mode (I didn’t mean to imply that).
@amiga909 said:
Don't think it is a good idea to leave Sections out of the game. Breaks the concept every track is assigned to a section. Allowing "Session view" its own white instances (as Arranger can do) seems crazy.
No need for white instances in arranger mode. Actually the arranger would harmonize with an clip launch mode perfectly. Are you familiar with Ableton’s session view? Some of your ideas appearing that you didn’t use it.
In a single track you will have different clips (variations) each has its own color if desired. Now if you record to arranger (or set the clip manually) you will see in arranger the different colors (different clips). This is exactly what is currently already happening in arranger. No hard coded sections are needed, they’ll work in background as they are doing now (when you’re recording to arranger while launching variations independently to their sections).
Again, each current mode could harmonize very well with a new clip launch mode.
@JLBorges: Yes of course, Deluges song mode is „pushing musicmaking forward to new boundaries“... not. Innovations are always welcome, absolutely. But an innovation need to improve things. If there is no improvement possible, there must be a good reason why things developed as they currently are. Did you ever tried to perform a whole song (with many tracks and track-variations) with the Deluge. Did you ever tried the same with Ableton? I guess not.
@MPrinsen: thanks to visualize your thoughts in pictures. But why so complicated? Actually picture 2 would be enough and I don’t see the sense of the colored section row. It’s very handy and necessary to always see the different colors of clips in a specific vertical track, to be able to differentiate if a clip is a variation or just a clone. Besides „Launch complete row“ why you think an additionally „Launch section“ row is needed, since the colors already making it clear which clip belongs to which section (in the current song mode)? Do like to have 2 different launch results? I honestly can’t see the advantage. I like to choose the colors of the clips as I feel.
@Noris The reason there should be 2 different "views" is because otherwise it wouldn't be clear which column is which instrument, especially when scrolling left/right if you have more than 16 instruments.
By using 1 assignable color per instrument, you can use the same colors for the same types of instruments in all your projects.
For example: Bass = blue, Lead = Red, Drums = Green
It has to be easy to memorize which column is which instrument. If every project has multiple colors on each row, it would be mess.
Secondly: the section color is only important, when you want to launch a section. So just hold shift, see which track/patterns are in which section, then press the section pad on the right.
BTW I think most people would use launch row instead of launching sections anyway, but it gives you an extra option and it makes sense to be backward compatible with the current song view.
BTW I think most people would use launch row instead of launching sections anyway, but it gives you an extra option and it makes sense to be backward compatible with the current song view.
Well explained, thanks.
For simplicity:
Why not ditch "Launch complete row"? So every row simply is a section. IMHO this would be much easier. I dont see an advantage to have both (launch complete row and launch section). And yeah, sorry I wrote the opposite a few days ago ;-)
Not only for backwards compatibility (for people using the old Song Mode) it is inevitable to keep sections. I dont see a way around this.
What do to with Arranger otherwise? How to insert a track from new Song mode to Arranger? If a track would not belong to a section, it had to be inserted as white instance. Doesnt make sense for me. New Song mode should have the same shortcuts like the old one, for example drag-track-to-arranger.
If row 1 was section red and row 2 was section blue. (at the moment Song mode would be limited to 12 rows, as we dont have more than 12 section colors yet).
So the second screen (hold shift) would not be necessary. You know to which section a track belongs by looking at the LAUNCH pad of that row. So all tracks on row 1 belong to section red, on row 2 to section blue.
Implications for your sketch:
no shift screen needed, only first screen
Mute column not needed by now (needs a new function!)
GUI allows to sort sections (eg. row 1 is blue, row 2 is red) and allows to sort tracks (eg. assign track to another section by moving it up/down)
You have 2 columns on the right side, so you have to utilize them. I think it is nice to have 2 separate ways of launching multiple clips at once.
Also, you NEED to give an instrument a section, even if you never use it. So I have given a lot of tracks the same section color without ever launching it. With your idea to line up all tracks of a section, what to do with multiple tracks of the same instrument in the same section?
You will also have a lot of empty spaces, which is not ideal. I'd like to have as many tracks/clips as possible on 1 "screen".
I like the idea of freely moving clips up/down the column. Usually you will launch clips individually anyway. Or multiple by pressing multiple pads at once. I think the launch entire row or launch section will only be used at big breakdowns or buildups, so you only need to do this a few times during a track.
I think there should be a 'launch mode' per clip as well, so you can determine whether a clip has to be a one-shot clip, a looping clip and how it should sync (to beat/4 beats/longest currently playing clip etc).
Wow, since a few post this thread became very confusing. Why not keep it simple like in Ableton Live (there is also a thread for an alternative 2. song mode, which is very similar)?
I can’t see any advantage of the rightmost colored (section) row. You don’t need them for compatibility. The mute/launch row could be used to launch a scene (horizontal row). The audition pads are free for other functions.
Also I hope that tracks will not have a unique color (track1 = red, track2 = blue, track3 = green...). Yes, “monochrome track colors“ is a request for the current song mode, because atm every clone will be copied to a new track and it’s not possible to recognise what you’ll launch. With this suggested view there would be fixed tracks, so you can recognise the kind of track easily just because of its position (track1 = drums, track2 = percussion, track3 = bass, track4 = lead....). No unique colors needed, totally different thing.
I would like to have selectable colors, to indicate the kind of a clip. Sorry, just my opinion.
track = clip
session view = the new view this is about
i see ur arguments for making it perfect for session view. the problem is compatibility with the other modes. Think about moving between the view modes. i see a lot of complexity working it together with Arranger mode. Possibly current Song mode too as some users may want to keep it. thats why i want to discuss the requirement every track has to belong to a section in session view too.
Also, you NEED to give an instrument a section, even if you never use it.
If you want tracks that dont belong to a section, things get complicated. In current Song mode this does not exist. In Arranger you can have white instances that are unique to Arranger. Another mode with its own unique instances seems daunting to me.
I don’t see any incompatibility for the current modes. If you change a color of a clip in session view, the color of this clip will change automatically in current song view, too. And vice versa. Every color change of a clip will affect both views.
If you’re recording to arranger: it’s also the same in both views. When launching clips in session view, they (and their colors) will recorded to arranger. Same with current song view.
No problem. I really guess you’re thinking too complex. Actually it’s just easy and fully compatible.
Yes sorry I have been using clips and tracks for the same thing.
Also, I don’t want tracks to be able to not link to a section at all. I just point out, you have to link them. Also for backwards compatibility.
But sometimes you don’t ever launch a certain section. That’s why you should be able to freely move tracks up and down in the new view, “building” your own rows, regardless of its section color.
@amiga909 said:
i am confused by abletonish uses of the words clip and track.
In some of your posts it became obviously that you don’t know Ableton’s session view. Maybe you should watch a few videos - then it should be more constructive to add your suggestions (don’t want to be unfriendly just constructive).
First thing, forget about the terminology of “tracks“ in terms of Deluge. Deluge has no “real“ tracks in compare to other sequencers or DAWs, because they aren’t fixed - you need to duplicate them often (which is one of the main problems). I will try to explain...
Track: Look at a common mixer. A track is a vertical row, it contains an instrument (or MIDI channel), EQ and its effects.
Clip: A clip is a part of a track (a track could contain many clips, which are also ordered vertically). A clip contains either audio data, or MIDI data (notes, CC automations, amount of bars...). A clip is somekind of a variation of your melody (or different instrument settings). Per track there is only 1 clip which can play per time.
Scene: A scene is a horizontal row of clips. You can press the play button of a scene and all clips in that horizontal row will start to play (if there is no clip, this track is quiet). A scene is a bit similar to Deluges sections.
@amiga909 said:
i am confused by abletonish uses of the words clip and track.
In some of your posts it became obviously that you don’t know Ableton’s session view. Maybe you should watch a few videos - then it should be more constructive to add your suggestions (don’t want to be unfriendly just constructive).
First thing, forget about the terminology of “tracks“ in terms of Deluge. Deluge has no “real“ tracks in compare to other sequencers or DAWs, because they aren’t fixed - you need to duplicate them often (which is one of the main problems). I will try to explain...
Track: Look at a common mixer. A track is a vertical row, it contains an instrument (or MIDI channel), EQ and its effects.
Clip: A clip is a part of a track (a track could contain many clips, which are also ordered vertically). A clip contains either audio data, or MIDI data (notes, CC automations, amount of bars...). A clip is somekind of a variation of your melody (or different instrument settings). Per track there is only 1 clip which can play per time.
Scene: A scene is a horizontal row of clips. You can press the play button of a scene and all clips in that horizontal row will start to play (if there is no clip, this track is quiet). A scene is a bit similar to Deluges sections.
Sorry, but I ran Ableton from version 3 (pre-midi/vst) until version 8 and Ableton “tracks” are horizontal in the Arrangement view and only vertical in the session view where clips are. Yes, “scenes” (where you can launch a row of clips) are horizontal in session view and Deluge could be setup easily to launch from the 16 pads on the far right, but in the track views of the Deluge, tracks are actually the most similar to “clips” in Ableton’s session view.
For those wanting to understand the terms without using Ableton, it’s probably a little difficult to conceptualize the Ableton workflow. I’m a little tired of seeing posts here though that want to make the Deluge an “Ableton in a box” by Ableton users and misunderstanding or apprehension naturally comes from those unfamiliar with Ableton.
I gave up Ableton and the computer DAW in 2014 and switched over to a MV8800 as my centerpiece sequencer/recorder/sampler/production station and it was very different but had some similarities but for a long time I wished it was more like Ableton. Then I learned to appreciate it for what it was and not what it wasn’t and stopped wishing it was more like Ableton in a box. I bought the Deluge last year when NAMM video talked about version 2 features and I assumed it would record to arranger but it didn’t. Then they implemented recording to arranger. I’m going to appreciate all the features of the Deluge for what they are and the fantastic workflow it has, but stopped wishing it was an Ableton in a box machine. There is Akai Force if one wants to go that direction. I’d prefer to wait and see what other great features get implemented by the Synthstrom crew and adapt. If they make a one to one sessions type workflow like Ableton, then great, but if not, it’s not going to stop me working the Deluge. They might just decide the same apprehension or confusion will be had by current users and opt out of yet a 4th function on the Deluge. We have tracks, songs, arranger already. Putting a 4th “Sessions and switching it up to vertical tracks in my opinion would be confusing to the current views I have also and this from someone that ran Ableton from 2003 to 2014.
One thing the Deluge definitely needs is more clarity (or indeed any clarity at all) in differentiating 'tracks' as they are referred to above (coming from a non-Ableton way of working I think of these as 'instruments') and 'patterns' or 'clips'. The most obvious way of doing this is to allocate a single colour per track/instrument which is feature requested elsewhere with loads of support. This simple change would increase usability tenfold IMO.
One gets into a confusing mess very quickly at the moment, even with the best intentions and organised approach, and it's never entirely clear when duplicating tracks whether one is working from a copy or a reference to the original. I'm having to spend far too long re-orientating myself when returning to projects after a week or two.
Thanks for gettin in a good overview muleskinner. I agree this is the problem and it can have different solutions. Mk, ur apparent disregard of the deluge terminology likely shows u have little interest in learning the deluge and what it has to offer. Plus a strong opinion everything has to be like ableton.. sad, ur ableton expertise surely could help.
I am sure u ll continue to trash me cause ur likely angry at urself ur not putting in the work the Deluge deserves. This is my impression and this is the last time i want to waste time trying to explain Deluge basics to u.
Everything ok with you amiga?? You asked a question:
@amiga909 said:
i am confused by abletonish uses of the words clip and track.
And I gave you the answer in Ableton terminology. And yes, for understanding this you need to forget how Deluge is calling “tracks“. And now you just reacting silly and unfriendly:
@amiga909 said:
Mk, ur apparent disregard of the deluge terminology likely shows u have little interest in learning the deluge and what it has to offer. Plus a strong opinion everything has to be like ableton..
Many thanks, it’s interesting how quick you build your opinion. Nice guy.
@amiga909 said:
I am sure u ll continue to trash me cause ur likely angry at urself ur not putting in the work the Deluge deserves. This is my impression and this is the last time i want to waste time trying to explain Deluge basics to u.
Yes, I trash you all the time. Of course. Are you paranoid? And you don’t need to “waste“ your time with me, I never asked for that! What is wrong with you? Just want to make trouble with people which are just answering your questions (in a very detailed way)? If yes, no problem don’t want to have any contact too.
@Noris I didn´t want to take time to clarify my opinion, that you quickly disregarded assuming that I'm innexperienced with either the Deluge or Ableton. Thankfully, @Vondragonnoggin did it for me.
Ableton has a workflow, and it's not perfect. It is what it is, it's useful in certain situations and not so much in others. Not every musician uses Ableton, not every musician likes Ableton.
Is Session view a feature that could be added to the Deluge? Certainly. Many people would appreciate it? Sure. Is it the best use of their time? I don't think it is. I think with the current modes you can already achieve great structural complexity for your songs, and there are many features that could be added to keep making the Deluge unique, such as a more robust synth engine, more sound design options, more performance oriented macros or components...
You don't have to agree, but just know that your opinion isn't everyones opinion, and that it is a very subjective matter.
The way song view works now just discourages me to create much more than 8 tracks. Which is a shame. I want to launch as many tracks from the same screen as possible. Especially since it is very blurring which track is which when scrolling up and down. I can’t recognize them.
@MPrinsen said:
The way song view works now just discourages me to create much more than 8 tracks. Which is a shame. I want to launch as many tracks from the same screen as possible. Especially since it is very blurring which track is which when scrolling up and down. I can’t recognize them.
So, do you get discouraged in Ableton when you run out of screen space for clip tracks and scene launches or do you scroll there to create more? Or does the labeling just solve the confusion? Have you ever used a Novation Launchpad with Ableton and not looked at the computer screen with it but just used the Launchpad to navigate your scenes and clips? The Deluge would be similar to using a Launchpad with Ableton and not be able to see clip track names or scene labels.
It gets easier if you are differentiating tracks by making longer tracks and increasing note resolution in song view (to 32nd note or 64th note for some tracks only not all) and making track lengths longer by duplicating material to make twice as long. The 30,000 ft overview of your tracks at high resolution starts to make them look very different and I find it easier for me to distinguish which tracks are which with no labels to use.
You will still run into the scrolling limitation with a vertical session view setup and only color coding to distinguish tracks so it’s a marginal gain in tracks if you have trouble creating more than 8 now because of scrolling.
Again, I’m not opposed to having a “Ableton type sessions” view in vertical tracks if it did not change what’s implemented already. I like song view and the quick flow between song view and track view and I’m used to it enough to handle live playing with mutes being flipped manually in individual KIT tracks (on looped samples to turn them on or off when using KIT track to take care of different samples rather than a single sample per track) then jumping to song view and muting entire tracks and back to unmuted with track views, etc, etc all in a timely manner. A little more tedious to launch tracks with scrolling and remembering where, but not undoable. All I was missing was recording that performance to an Arranger and doing final tweaks for a finished song and now that’s possible. So if they do a 4th view that needs a button combo to get into that can’t be triggered accidentally, great. I might learn it. Not having it certainly won’t discourage me from creating more than 8 tracks though. That’s just a matter of bothering to get used to the workflow. Just asking because your post read like you would possibly be turned off from using the Deluge if they didn’t implement this “sessions” view and I’d have to ask why you bought it with its current limitation?
It’s sad that it a few people here are thinking that others need to defend theirselves, just because they like to see a specific feature (which has a huge demand in this community). It’s Ok if this few people can’t see the advantage of the ability of jamming with 16 tracks/instruments + 128 clips (in Deluge = tracks) per time, instead of just 8 per time. I repeat myself: it’s completely Ok. But you also need to respect the other side, and don’t tell them they wouldn’t know the potential of Deluge, they need more practice, they are Ableton Live fanboys, or they better should buy other gear (and similar “arguments“ like this). This is just unfair and childish. No fear, this second mode could exist beside the current song mode.
This is a feature request and there is a reason for all the upvotes, just except this. Thanks.
Granted the title says “Song view should work like Ableton Live’s Session view” indicating a change to current Song view, not another separate view. Maybe the title should be changed to indicate an additional view rather than a change to a currently working one that people have spent time learning to get the most out of. Changing a currently learned view completely to vertical tracks of clips for Song view is bound to cause apprehension and resistance vs a new additional view that could be learned and then a choice could be made to work in whichever view you liked best.
@MPrinsen said:
The way song view works now just discourages me to create much more than 8 tracks. Which is a shame. I want to launch as many tracks from the same screen as possible. Especially since it is very blurring which track is which when scrolling up and down. I can’t recognize them.
Exactly.
The current workflow is rather made for creating and playing back a song than for performing live. The MPC Force is likely to purge the Deluge in it's current state from my setup at the moment. I don't even care about all the sampling and synth stuff. The Deluge is only a sequencer for me.
i would loooove to see a new launch and performance mode too.
please in addition to the current song mode, it is sometimes helpful. for performance you could press song and track buttons. when both are blue it is enabled.
even if tracks / instruments would stay horizontal, this will help extremely for orientation (but one horizontal line need to be a fixed instrument, each pad in this line could be a different variation). then we can see at least 8 instruments at once and 128 tracks / variations. now there are just 8 variations or tracks at once. although i prefer to see 16 vertical instruments at once, too.
different launch quantisations would be necessary too in performances.
@bloom said:
one horizontal line need to be a fixed instrument, each pad in this line could be a different variation). then we can see at least 8 instruments at once and 128 tracks / variations.
Comments
The Force looks very interesting for intuitive live use. But I must agree if the Deluge would get a similar launching workflow it could be much more interesting for a lot of people. Some friends of mine didn’t buy Deluge because of its current song mode (I don’t speak about arranger, this is cool!).
Amiga909, I don’t see why Deluge is just meant to have it’s current layout, the opposite is the case. Precisely because it has so much buttons and additionally the 16 buttons on the right hand side. Of course the mute/launch buttons would trigger a scene (horizontally line of clips). The audition/section buttons could do many things which the Force and other devices aren’t able to do. For example: There you could adjust the launch quantisation, or choosing colors for your clips, or my preferred function (and this would be a cool and unique feature of the Deluge): press and hold a clip (one of the 128 buttons) and then play eith the audition pads notes of your clips. This would have many advantages. For orientation you could HEAR which instrument is inside this track (instead of reading the patch number which isn’t representative for the kind of sound), then it’s perfectly for liveacts to play different sounds without always entering track view, and you also could record notes instantly without going to track view and so forth. Of course you could also use them to stop a scene as MPrinsen suggested. There are many possibilities!
Just a minor side note, because people often think that Ableton was the inventor of introducing the matrix style clip launching hardware: As far as I know the first inventor was Monome with their products 64, 128 and 256 - many years ago. After that there was Livid Instruments with their products. Then Akai „copied“ this idea with their APC40, then Novation copied Akai... Only then there was a collaboration between Akai and Ableton with Push 1. There is also NI Machine Jam which has that workflow. Push 2 was the first device which was made by Ableton exclusively.
So this is an old concept which was refreshed by many companies, because it’s just perfect. In this spirit: Go for it Synthstrom, show them the potential of the Deluge!
I don't actually see a clear advantage of ableton's session view over the standard left-to-right sequencer view, and also agree with @amiga909 that Deluge is designed to work this way, with the separation of the rightmost pads.
I think both workflows have strongs and weaknesses, but in this case it's a design choice from Synthstrom, part of the personality of the Deluge, and IMHO it's not a feature to be added when there are tons of features that would go a longer way to consolidate the Deluge as an instrument with it's own purpose.
Regarding the Force, I'll never get tired of saying that it takes too literally the "Ableton in a box" thing. I mean, yes, if what you personally need is just to physically get away from your computer, then it's ok-- But its main flaw is to be extremely generic by design, and to me thats the worst, because it's not pushing musicmaking forward to new boundaries, it's taking the tools that are already available and wrappíng them in shinny paper.
Yeah, I agree additional mode is hard to avoid because of backwards compatibility. Dont see myself using both modes though. But others may think differently. Long term a hard cut and replacement would be maybe better.
Don't think it is a good idea to leave Sections out of the game. Breaks the concept every track is assigned to a section. Allowing "Session view" its own white instances (as Arranger can do) seems crazy.
Sections (you can 12 if i am not mistaken) could be hard coded to the Audition row. So first row was section orange, second row section red, and so on. Pressing an Audition button would then match the "launch complete row function".
"maybe also place 1 pattern on multiple positions in the grid"
yeah, the track clone UX could work exactly the same in "Session view" as in current Song mode.
for the Mute Column
“unarm the complete row, end their pattern and then stop looping” doesnt seem very helpful for me.
it could be used to somehow designate the length or position of the longest track, so you get an indication how long a row/section is and where you are (to kinda keep that feature from current Song mode).
Ok you are right about the mute complete row. Instead of that, we can use those 8 pads for sections: hold shift and scroll up/down to scroll through the 12 sections. The tracks in the grid should get their section color when holding shift. When not holding shift, each column has a user customizable color, just like in ableton.
I agree, white instances shouldn’t be something for this mode (I didn’t mean to imply that).
No need for white instances in arranger mode. Actually the arranger would harmonize with an clip launch mode perfectly. Are you familiar with Ableton’s session view? Some of your ideas appearing that you didn’t use it.
In a single track you will have different clips (variations) each has its own color if desired. Now if you record to arranger (or set the clip manually) you will see in arranger the different colors (different clips). This is exactly what is currently already happening in arranger. No hard coded sections are needed, they’ll work in background as they are doing now (when you’re recording to arranger while launching variations independently to their sections).
Again, each current mode could harmonize very well with a new clip launch mode.
@JLBorges: Yes of course, Deluges song mode is „pushing musicmaking forward to new boundaries“... not. Innovations are always welcome, absolutely. But an innovation need to improve things. If there is no improvement possible, there must be a good reason why things developed as they currently are. Did you ever tried to perform a whole song (with many tracks and track-variations) with the Deluge. Did you ever tried the same with Ableton? I guess not.
@rohan I made a sketchup
nice one mPrinsen! i like launch complete row together with launch section
@MPrinsen: thanks to visualize your thoughts in pictures. But why so complicated? Actually picture 2 would be enough and I don’t see the sense of the colored section row. It’s very handy and necessary to always see the different colors of clips in a specific vertical track, to be able to differentiate if a clip is a variation or just a clone. Besides „Launch complete row“ why you think an additionally „Launch section“ row is needed, since the colors already making it clear which clip belongs to which section (in the current song mode)? Do like to have 2 different launch results? I honestly can’t see the advantage. I like to choose the colors of the clips as I feel.
@Noris The reason there should be 2 different "views" is because otherwise it wouldn't be clear which column is which instrument, especially when scrolling left/right if you have more than 16 instruments.
By using 1 assignable color per instrument, you can use the same colors for the same types of instruments in all your projects.
For example: Bass = blue, Lead = Red, Drums = Green
It has to be easy to memorize which column is which instrument. If every project has multiple colors on each row, it would be mess.
Secondly: the section color is only important, when you want to launch a section. So just hold shift, see which track/patterns are in which section, then press the section pad on the right.
BTW I think most people would use launch row instead of launching sections anyway, but it gives you an extra option and it makes sense to be backward compatible with the current song view.
Well explained, thanks.
For simplicity:
Why not ditch "Launch complete row"? So every row simply is a section. IMHO this would be much easier. I dont see an advantage to have both (launch complete row and launch section). And yeah, sorry I wrote the opposite a few days ago ;-)
Not only for backwards compatibility (for people using the old Song Mode) it is inevitable to keep sections. I dont see a way around this.
What do to with Arranger otherwise? How to insert a track from new Song mode to Arranger? If a track would not belong to a section, it had to be inserted as white instance. Doesnt make sense for me. New Song mode should have the same shortcuts like the old one, for example drag-track-to-arranger.
If row 1 was section red and row 2 was section blue. (at the moment Song mode would be limited to 12 rows, as we dont have more than 12 section colors yet).
So the second screen (hold shift) would not be necessary. You know to which section a track belongs by looking at the LAUNCH pad of that row. So all tracks on row 1 belong to section red, on row 2 to section blue.
Implications for your sketch:
You have 2 columns on the right side, so you have to utilize them. I think it is nice to have 2 separate ways of launching multiple clips at once.
Also, you NEED to give an instrument a section, even if you never use it. So I have given a lot of tracks the same section color without ever launching it. With your idea to line up all tracks of a section, what to do with multiple tracks of the same instrument in the same section?
You will also have a lot of empty spaces, which is not ideal. I'd like to have as many tracks/clips as possible on 1 "screen".
I like the idea of freely moving clips up/down the column. Usually you will launch clips individually anyway. Or multiple by pressing multiple pads at once. I think the launch entire row or launch section will only be used at big breakdowns or buildups, so you only need to do this a few times during a track.
I think there should be a 'launch mode' per clip as well, so you can determine whether a clip has to be a one-shot clip, a looping clip and how it should sync (to beat/4 beats/longest currently playing clip etc).
Wow, since a few post this thread became very confusing. Why not keep it simple like in Ableton Live (there is also a thread for an alternative 2. song mode, which is very similar)?
I can’t see any advantage of the rightmost colored (section) row. You don’t need them for compatibility. The mute/launch row could be used to launch a scene (horizontal row). The audition pads are free for other functions.
Also I hope that tracks will not have a unique color (track1 = red, track2 = blue, track3 = green...). Yes, “monochrome track colors“ is a request for the current song mode, because atm every clone will be copied to a new track and it’s not possible to recognise what you’ll launch. With this suggested view there would be fixed tracks, so you can recognise the kind of track easily just because of its position (track1 = drums, track2 = percussion, track3 = bass, track4 = lead....). No unique colors needed, totally different thing.
I would like to have selectable colors, to indicate the kind of a clip. Sorry, just my opinion.
track = clip
session view = the new view this is about
i see ur arguments for making it perfect for session view. the problem is compatibility with the other modes. Think about moving between the view modes. i see a lot of complexity working it together with Arranger mode. Possibly current Song mode too as some users may want to keep it. thats why i want to discuss the requirement every track has to belong to a section in session view too.
If you want tracks that dont belong to a section, things get complicated. In current Song mode this does not exist. In Arranger you can have white instances that are unique to Arranger. Another mode with its own unique instances seems daunting to me.
I don’t see any incompatibility for the current modes. If you change a color of a clip in session view, the color of this clip will change automatically in current song view, too. And vice versa. Every color change of a clip will affect both views.
If you’re recording to arranger: it’s also the same in both views. When launching clips in session view, they (and their colors) will recorded to arranger. Same with current song view.
No problem. I really guess you’re thinking too complex. Actually it’s just easy and fully compatible.
it would help if we could at least agree on a terminology. i am confused by abletonish uses of the words clip and track.
Yes sorry I have been using clips and tracks for the same thing.
Also, I don’t want tracks to be able to not link to a section at all. I just point out, you have to link them. Also for backwards compatibility.
But sometimes you don’t ever launch a certain section. That’s why you should be able to freely move tracks up and down in the new view, “building” your own rows, regardless of its section color.
In some of your posts it became obviously that you don’t know Ableton’s session view. Maybe you should watch a few videos - then it should be more constructive to add your suggestions (don’t want to be unfriendly just constructive).
First thing, forget about the terminology of “tracks“ in terms of Deluge. Deluge has no “real“ tracks in compare to other sequencers or DAWs, because they aren’t fixed - you need to duplicate them often (which is one of the main problems). I will try to explain...
Track: Look at a common mixer. A track is a vertical row, it contains an instrument (or MIDI channel), EQ and its effects.
Clip: A clip is a part of a track (a track could contain many clips, which are also ordered vertically). A clip contains either audio data, or MIDI data (notes, CC automations, amount of bars...). A clip is somekind of a variation of your melody (or different instrument settings). Per track there is only 1 clip which can play per time.
Scene: A scene is a horizontal row of clips. You can press the play button of a scene and all clips in that horizontal row will start to play (if there is no clip, this track is quiet). A scene is a bit similar to Deluges sections.
Sorry, but I ran Ableton from version 3 (pre-midi/vst) until version 8 and Ableton “tracks” are horizontal in the Arrangement view and only vertical in the session view where clips are. Yes, “scenes” (where you can launch a row of clips) are horizontal in session view and Deluge could be setup easily to launch from the 16 pads on the far right, but in the track views of the Deluge, tracks are actually the most similar to “clips” in Ableton’s session view.
For those wanting to understand the terms without using Ableton, it’s probably a little difficult to conceptualize the Ableton workflow. I’m a little tired of seeing posts here though that want to make the Deluge an “Ableton in a box” by Ableton users and misunderstanding or apprehension naturally comes from those unfamiliar with Ableton.
I gave up Ableton and the computer DAW in 2014 and switched over to a MV8800 as my centerpiece sequencer/recorder/sampler/production station and it was very different but had some similarities but for a long time I wished it was more like Ableton. Then I learned to appreciate it for what it was and not what it wasn’t and stopped wishing it was more like Ableton in a box. I bought the Deluge last year when NAMM video talked about version 2 features and I assumed it would record to arranger but it didn’t. Then they implemented recording to arranger. I’m going to appreciate all the features of the Deluge for what they are and the fantastic workflow it has, but stopped wishing it was an Ableton in a box machine. There is Akai Force if one wants to go that direction. I’d prefer to wait and see what other great features get implemented by the Synthstrom crew and adapt. If they make a one to one sessions type workflow like Ableton, then great, but if not, it’s not going to stop me working the Deluge. They might just decide the same apprehension or confusion will be had by current users and opt out of yet a 4th function on the Deluge. We have tracks, songs, arranger already. Putting a 4th “Sessions and switching it up to vertical tracks in my opinion would be confusing to the current views I have also and this from someone that ran Ableton from 2003 to 2014.
@Vondragonnoggin,
Great post!
I think Rohan is brilliant, I hope he never compromises his vision.
One thing the Deluge definitely needs is more clarity (or indeed any clarity at all) in differentiating 'tracks' as they are referred to above (coming from a non-Ableton way of working I think of these as 'instruments') and 'patterns' or 'clips'. The most obvious way of doing this is to allocate a single colour per track/instrument which is feature requested elsewhere with loads of support. This simple change would increase usability tenfold IMO.
One gets into a confusing mess very quickly at the moment, even with the best intentions and organised approach, and it's never entirely clear when duplicating tracks whether one is working from a copy or a reference to the original. I'm having to spend far too long re-orientating myself when returning to projects after a week or two.
Noise, Noodles and Doodles: http://bit.ly/mrjonesthebutcher
Thanks for gettin in a good overview muleskinner. I agree this is the problem and it can have different solutions. Mk, ur apparent disregard of the deluge terminology likely shows u have little interest in learning the deluge and what it has to offer. Plus a strong opinion everything has to be like ableton.. sad, ur ableton expertise surely could help.
I am sure u ll continue to trash me cause ur likely angry at urself ur not putting in the work the Deluge deserves. This is my impression and this is the last time i want to waste time trying to explain Deluge basics to u.
Everything ok with you amiga?? You asked a question:
And I gave you the answer in Ableton terminology. And yes, for understanding this you need to forget how Deluge is calling “tracks“. And now you just reacting silly and unfriendly:
Many thanks, it’s interesting how quick you build your opinion. Nice guy.
Yes, I trash you all the time. Of course. Are you paranoid? And you don’t need to “waste“ your time with me, I never asked for that! What is wrong with you? Just want to make trouble with people which are just answering your questions (in a very detailed way)? If yes, no problem don’t want to have any contact too.
@Noris I didn´t want to take time to clarify my opinion, that you quickly disregarded assuming that I'm innexperienced with either the Deluge or Ableton. Thankfully, @Vondragonnoggin did it for me.
Ableton has a workflow, and it's not perfect. It is what it is, it's useful in certain situations and not so much in others. Not every musician uses Ableton, not every musician likes Ableton.
Is Session view a feature that could be added to the Deluge? Certainly. Many people would appreciate it? Sure. Is it the best use of their time? I don't think it is. I think with the current modes you can already achieve great structural complexity for your songs, and there are many features that could be added to keep making the Deluge unique, such as a more robust synth engine, more sound design options, more performance oriented macros or components...
You don't have to agree, but just know that your opinion isn't everyones opinion, and that it is a very subjective matter.
The way song view works now just discourages me to create much more than 8 tracks. Which is a shame. I want to launch as many tracks from the same screen as possible. Especially since it is very blurring which track is which when scrolling up and down. I can’t recognize them.
So, do you get discouraged in Ableton when you run out of screen space for clip tracks and scene launches or do you scroll there to create more? Or does the labeling just solve the confusion? Have you ever used a Novation Launchpad with Ableton and not looked at the computer screen with it but just used the Launchpad to navigate your scenes and clips? The Deluge would be similar to using a Launchpad with Ableton and not be able to see clip track names or scene labels.
It gets easier if you are differentiating tracks by making longer tracks and increasing note resolution in song view (to 32nd note or 64th note for some tracks only not all) and making track lengths longer by duplicating material to make twice as long. The 30,000 ft overview of your tracks at high resolution starts to make them look very different and I find it easier for me to distinguish which tracks are which with no labels to use.
You will still run into the scrolling limitation with a vertical session view setup and only color coding to distinguish tracks so it’s a marginal gain in tracks if you have trouble creating more than 8 now because of scrolling.
Again, I’m not opposed to having a “Ableton type sessions” view in vertical tracks if it did not change what’s implemented already. I like song view and the quick flow between song view and track view and I’m used to it enough to handle live playing with mutes being flipped manually in individual KIT tracks (on looped samples to turn them on or off when using KIT track to take care of different samples rather than a single sample per track) then jumping to song view and muting entire tracks and back to unmuted with track views, etc, etc all in a timely manner. A little more tedious to launch tracks with scrolling and remembering where, but not undoable. All I was missing was recording that performance to an Arranger and doing final tweaks for a finished song and now that’s possible. So if they do a 4th view that needs a button combo to get into that can’t be triggered accidentally, great. I might learn it. Not having it certainly won’t discourage me from creating more than 8 tracks though. That’s just a matter of bothering to get used to the workflow. Just asking because your post read like you would possibly be turned off from using the Deluge if they didn’t implement this “sessions” view and I’d have to ask why you bought it with its current limitation?
It’s sad that it a few people here are thinking that others need to defend theirselves, just because they like to see a specific feature (which has a huge demand in this community). It’s Ok if this few people can’t see the advantage of the ability of jamming with 16 tracks/instruments + 128 clips (in Deluge = tracks) per time, instead of just 8 per time. I repeat myself: it’s completely Ok. But you also need to respect the other side, and don’t tell them they wouldn’t know the potential of Deluge, they need more practice, they are Ableton Live fanboys, or they better should buy other gear (and similar “arguments“ like this). This is just unfair and childish. No fear, this second mode could exist beside the current song mode.
This is a feature request and there is a reason for all the upvotes, just except this. Thanks.
Granted the title says “Song view should work like Ableton Live’s Session view” indicating a change to current Song view, not another separate view. Maybe the title should be changed to indicate an additional view rather than a change to a currently working one that people have spent time learning to get the most out of. Changing a currently learned view completely to vertical tracks of clips for Song view is bound to cause apprehension and resistance vs a new additional view that could be learned and then a choice could be made to work in whichever view you liked best.
Exactly.
The current workflow is rather made for creating and playing back a song than for performing live. The MPC Force is likely to purge the Deluge in it's current state from my setup at the moment. I don't even care about all the sampling and synth stuff. The Deluge is only a sequencer for me.
i would loooove to see a new launch and performance mode too.
please in addition to the current song mode, it is sometimes helpful. for performance you could press song and track buttons. when both are blue it is enabled.
even if tracks / instruments would stay horizontal, this will help extremely for orientation (but one horizontal line need to be a fixed instrument, each pad in this line could be a different variation). then we can see at least 8 instruments at once and 128 tracks / variations. now there are just 8 variations or tracks at once. although i prefer to see 16 vertical instruments at once, too.
different launch quantisations would be necessary too in performances.
Great idea.