I think Song View should be kept like it is, but there should be an additional vertical Session View, like in Ableton or Bitwig.
With a limited number of Clips in Song View this is ok, but think about having 20/30/50 Clips'n'Clones , this is no fun and nothing for live performance. And after two weeks you have to learn your own setting again, because you can't remember and can't see how you build it.
So a new Session View would be so much fun and extremely helpful.
Maybe as a two year thread anniversary surprise for the end of year firmware release? #tytasfteoyfr
Just wanted to reiterate my song mode overhaul proposal with a little more detail and address some of the issues I see around that think it solves.
In the image each different color on a row represents a clip, each row an instrument. The red section is playing 3 beats in, therefore its pads are bright.
If you zoom out, you will see the same clips but each will take up 1 pad and blink at tempo. This would be 16 clips*8 instruments for 128 total clips.
Start and stop clips like the existing launch button, aka wait for the end of the clip, by tapping one of their pads. I like the idea of using shift+pad to enter clip edit, maybe hold a pad and press the clip button or double tap?
The physical launch pad can take the place of Shift+Launch and instantly mute/play the currently selected clip, just like arranger mode.
Lastly there is also a "White" clip playing, again like arranger mode. Maybe we could have one white clip per instrument that ignores whatever is happening with the section until you manually override it.
Another Idea is "Section Combination". If you hold down a section pad then press the pad of another section, the deluge could scan through the instruments and start any of the second section when the instrument is not controlled by the section of the first press. Effectively "Combining" the sections with priority towards the first section selected.
That along with some expanded probability/repeat/follow action behavior would really open up song mode.
In the future if saving/loading of midi or automation/cv clips as opposed to instruments becomes available, it would be really clear what was what.
I really think this scheme hits the following points:
1.Clear indication of a clip's parent instrument and clearly shows what other clips will be stopped when starting a clip.
2. Ability to have available 128 clips at once.
3. Very similar to existing song mode, keeps "unique" approach.
4. Expanded section control.
4. Ability to call multiple combinations of clips easily without copying clips.
5. Parity with Arranger Mode
6. Indicates track length and play-head position.
I understand if you disagree and whatever Synthstrom does they do, the reason I am posting this is for clarification of my previous post. If they actually to care change this up I'm sure they have their own ideas anyway
The machine would still be unique. Its just about making better use of the many buttons; the song view does have more potential. BTW I want to suggest the following: if you make certain functions midi-controllable, like the clicking into a row to show its clip, you might have Ableton-functionality if you pair it with a grid-controller like ableton push or apc 40. You just need to be able to have a midi command that shows the clip and also works for activating that clip. (Or am I missing something?) Man that would be awesome! And it does seem like its not much work for the developers, just midify 2 functions.
I'd like to bump this because it's still a major issue which makes the deluge hard to use for big sets.
Splitting the set into multiple projects is not really working as well, because it's not possible to copy a track which all it's properties to a different project. When something's changed in one project, it has to be copied to all related projects as well. And as soon as there's some improvisation which should be kept, the project switching is dead anyway.
I bought deluge some day ago, it's a great machine and I fall in love with it! But the song view is quite useless... why have a whole row for just select or insert a new instrument? Adding a view like ableton (or akai force) could be more efficient in a live performance context. It could be activated with shift+song shortcut.
edit: whoops, though I didn't post here yet but I did... still, would love to emphasise this again
With 'vertical mode' you could have 16 instrument with 8 patterns each in just one screen. Image how fast you can switch song and arrangement view copying and pasting those patterns, without the need to scroll around you song view trying to remember what is what. I stopped trying to create songs in the deluge. Still love it for ideation and controlling my studio without a computer, but when I have a pattern per instrument that I like, I record them to Ableton and go from there.
@PaulH said:
I would also love some kind of vertical pattern arrangement. That could give 16 tracks with 8 different patterns each, just in one view. Although I like the grouped pattern selection in song mode, I find it hard to keep track of what is what and it's also hard to easily mix and match different patterns to each other. I must say though I'm still a newbie, so there is also simply still some time I need to invest in this thing. But still, would very much like an extra 'vertical view'.
I thought about that vertical Ableton/Bitwig view. One thing that isn't there anymore, you can't see the progress pointer moving from left to right BUT
unused pads are dark (not enlightened)
used, but not playing pads are greyed
the pad that is playing is showing with colors at which part in percentage of the clip it is playing as an example:
3.1. Starting with blue (25%), green (50%), yellow (75%), red (90% <- Last call)
3.2. Clips that should start playing next are blinking pink
3.3. Shift + Pad switches instantly without sync
3.4. Long press Pad will start blinking pink and play instantly synched.
3.5. Short press will enter the clip.
And maybe the top line has on every page you can scroll right another color (greyed) e.g. the first page line is brown, second is red, third pink and so on.If I counted correct we have 12 grey colors, so there is a possiblity to have 192 horizontal tracks with unlimited vertical clips. And If you want to implement more tracks, you just start checkerboard the colors (brown/red/brown/red... , red/pink/red/pink.... and so on
Sorry forgot to mention how you would enter a clip section 3.5 And I'm not quite sure, if the long press, short press and shift press is the most practical configuration. What do you think?
@OdoSendaidokai said:
I thought about that vertical Ableton/Bitwig view. One thing that isn't there anymore, you can't see the progress pointer moving from left to right
please see my suggestion further back in this thread.
I think the horizontal direction of the deluge is just fine. Switching to vertical mode might be too much extra work.
However if every row represents an instrument and every pad of a row a pattern u could select the pattern by pressing it.
The rest of the functions (muting) would be just the same.
Basically it would be the deluges arranger view just with the option to select the patterns/clips individualy and looping them.
Just thinking about ways to implement it the most easy way.
The current song view is a bit redundant imo since i can't edit the steps from there anyway and the visual feedback it provides isn't really helpful because of the big amount of rows at bigger projects/templates.
Since the same instrument can just play one pattern at a time, a horizontal session view would make that easier to understand aswell.
(Sry for posting it in teh fb group btw and if these thoughts have been shared here before - just wanted to add my opinion.;))
maybe we'll see developments with the open software. I would just like to add that each row should be able to have it's own BPM, so changes of tempo could be seamless.
this would turn the deluge into a midi powerhouse and a proper master sequencer for hardware gear
Bump for this idea! This is a really great suggestion. Producing a full song on the deluge can be really cumbersome when you start to have many different components. Scrolling can be so tiresome and overwhelming. If you can have a full song on one 8x16 grid page that would be epic!
Comments
Volt mentioned "most of the companies do this" Kina do you think they are being sued too ?
I think Song View should be kept like it is, but there should be an additional vertical Session View, like in Ableton or Bitwig.
With a limited number of Clips in Song View this is ok, but think about having 20/30/50 Clips'n'Clones , this is no fun and nothing for live performance. And after two weeks you have to learn your own setting again, because you can't remember and can't see how you build it.
So a new Session View would be so much fun and extremely helpful.
Maybe as a two year thread anniversary surprise for the end of year firmware release? #tytasfteoyfr
Odo Sendaidokai from Berlin
Just wanted to reiterate my song mode overhaul proposal with a little more detail and address some of the issues I see around that think it solves.
In the image each different color on a row represents a clip, each row an instrument. The red section is playing 3 beats in, therefore its pads are bright.
If you zoom out, you will see the same clips but each will take up 1 pad and blink at tempo. This would be 16 clips*8 instruments for 128 total clips.
Start and stop clips like the existing launch button, aka wait for the end of the clip, by tapping one of their pads. I like the idea of using shift+pad to enter clip edit, maybe hold a pad and press the clip button or double tap?
The physical launch pad can take the place of Shift+Launch and instantly mute/play the currently selected clip, just like arranger mode.
Lastly there is also a "White" clip playing, again like arranger mode. Maybe we could have one white clip per instrument that ignores whatever is happening with the section until you manually override it.
Another Idea is "Section Combination". If you hold down a section pad then press the pad of another section, the deluge could scan through the instruments and start any of the second section when the instrument is not controlled by the section of the first press. Effectively "Combining" the sections with priority towards the first section selected.
That along with some expanded probability/repeat/follow action behavior would really open up song mode.
In the future if saving/loading of midi or automation/cv clips as opposed to instruments becomes available, it would be really clear what was what.
I really think this scheme hits the following points:
1.Clear indication of a clip's parent instrument and clearly shows what other clips will be stopped when starting a clip.
2. Ability to have available 128 clips at once.
3. Very similar to existing song mode, keeps "unique" approach.
4. Expanded section control.
4. Ability to call multiple combinations of clips easily without copying clips.
5. Parity with Arranger Mode
6. Indicates track length and play-head position.
I understand if you disagree and whatever Synthstrom does they do, the reason I am posting this is for clarification of my previous post. If they actually to care change this up I'm sure they have their own ideas anyway
The machine would still be unique. Its just about making better use of the many buttons; the song view does have more potential. BTW I want to suggest the following: if you make certain functions midi-controllable, like the clicking into a row to show its clip, you might have Ableton-functionality if you pair it with a grid-controller like ableton push or apc 40. You just need to be able to have a midi command that shows the clip and also works for activating that clip. (Or am I missing something?) Man that would be awesome! And it does seem like its not much work for the developers, just midify 2 functions.
I'd like to bump this because it's still a major issue which makes the deluge hard to use for big sets.
Splitting the set into multiple projects is not really working as well, because it's not possible to copy a track which all it's properties to a different project. When something's changed in one project, it has to be copied to all related projects as well. And as soon as there's some improvisation which should be kept, the project switching is dead anyway.
This is just a monthly reminder that this would be a game changer!
+1
🅽🅾🆅🅸🅲🅴 🅳🅴🅻🆄🅶🅸🅾🅽🅸🆂🆃?
Maybe an idea would be to use the unused (in song/arranger) triplets view button to switch between different views?
So you could switch between song, arranger, session views.
I bought deluge some day ago, it's a great machine and I fall in love with it! But the song view is quite useless... why have a whole row for just select or insert a new instrument? Adding a view like ableton (or akai force) could be more efficient in a live performance context. It could be activated with shift+song shortcut.
edit: whoops, though I didn't post here yet but I did... still, would love to emphasise this again
With 'vertical mode' you could have 16 instrument with 8 patterns each in just one screen. Image how fast you can switch song and arrangement view copying and pasting those patterns, without the need to scroll around you song view trying to remember what is what. I stopped trying to create songs in the deluge. Still love it for ideation and controlling my studio without a computer, but when I have a pattern per instrument that I like, I record them to Ableton and go from there.
I thought about that vertical Ableton/Bitwig view. One thing that isn't there anymore, you can't see the progress pointer moving from left to right BUT
3.1. Starting with blue (25%), green (50%), yellow (75%), red (90% <- Last call)
3.2. Clips that should start playing next are blinking pink
3.3. Shift + Pad switches instantly without sync
3.4. Long press Pad will start blinking pink and play instantly synched.
3.5. Short press will enter the clip.
And maybe the top line has on every page you can scroll right another color (greyed) e.g. the first page line is brown, second is red, third pink and so on.If I counted correct we have 12 grey colors, so there is a possiblity to have 192 horizontal tracks with unlimited vertical clips. And If you want to implement more tracks, you just start checkerboard the colors (brown/red/brown/red... , red/pink/red/pink.... and so on
Odo Sendaidokai from Berlin
Sorry forgot to mention how you would enter a clip section 3.5 And I'm not quite sure, if the long press, short press and shift press is the most practical configuration. What do you think?
Odo Sendaidokai from Berlin
Damn I'd even pay for this...
please see my suggestion further back in this thread.
This!
I think the horizontal direction of the deluge is just fine. Switching to vertical mode might be too much extra work.
However if every row represents an instrument and every pad of a row a pattern u could select the pattern by pressing it.
The rest of the functions (muting) would be just the same.
Basically it would be the deluges arranger view just with the option to select the patterns/clips individualy and looping them.
Just thinking about ways to implement it the most easy way.
The current song view is a bit redundant imo since i can't edit the steps from there anyway and the visual feedback it provides isn't really helpful because of the big amount of rows at bigger projects/templates.
Since the same instrument can just play one pattern at a time, a horizontal session view would make that easier to understand aswell.
(Sry for posting it in teh fb group btw and if these thoughts have been shared here before - just wanted to add my opinion.;))
+1 for an alternative real Ableton clip launch mode (16 tracks x 8 clips to see/play/perform at once)!
+1
maybe we'll see developments with the open software. I would just like to add that each row should be able to have it's own BPM, so changes of tempo could be seamless.
this would turn the deluge into a midi powerhouse and a proper master sequencer for hardware gear
Bump for this idea! This is a really great suggestion. Producing a full song on the deluge can be really cumbersome when you start to have many different components. Scrolling can be so tiresome and overwhelming. If you can have a full song on one 8x16 grid page that would be epic!