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Questions and Comments on the Deluge UI

0
feijaifeijai Washington, DCPosts: 43

I have not been playing with the Deluge for very long, but I have bumped up against some oddities in the UI and manual which have proven frustrating. I thought I'd ask about them.

The manual is inconsistent and often missing information about how to navigate from view to view and how to use the file browser. View navigation had some missing information, leading me to make the little diagram I've attached below. The file browser was very confusing because little in the manual explains how recordings are leaf nodes in the file hierarchy. Making my way through this led to some questions and comments:

  • Why can I delete a sample in the file browser but (it seems) I can't name or rename a sample?
  • Similarly, I think there's no way to create a new subdirectory in the File browser, or to delete an empty subdirectory. This would be helpful.
  • The overloaded use of the BACK button to mean "go to parent directory" and also "exit the file browser" (if you're at the effective root directory) is for me an enormous source of error. I want to go up a ways in the hierachy, so back-back-back-OOPS I EXITED. This is made all the worse because I can't automatically tell when I'm at the root. May I strongly suggest using a different button -- any button but the back button please -- to go up to parent? Or use the mute and audition columns to represent the current directory stack, and press a lit pad in those columns to back up the stack? Or provide some kind of backstop?
  • Another huge source of errors for me is due to the fact that the Deluge lacks "are you sure" checks for some important destructive operations. Notably if you press SHIFT-Kit by accident, your entire kit is erased immediately. There's no way to undo it as far as I can tell. I've done this dozens of times, mixing it up with AUDITION-Kit. Bam, there go my samples. :-(
  • Why is column 16 not used in viewing the sample during browsing?
  • For reasons unknown to me, if you start to delete a sample, then cancel, the Delete light continues to blink as long as you're in the file browser. What is the function of this?
  • I can't figure out how to wrap note lengths. That is, i can't click on a note at beat 12, then extend its length to beat 4. Am I missing something?
  • Do you expect to be able to support ExtFAT and larger cards any time soon?

While I have you, if you're currently working on wavetables, WaveEdit's dead simple 256-sample, 64-wave format embedded in a single mono WAV has proven very popular, with a big user library at WaveEditOnline. I've found this indispensible when building my own wavetable synths.

Also you might consider including the public domain Adventure Kid Waveforms collection in your default samples folder.

Comments

  • 1
    IcoustikIcoustik NorwayModerator, Beta Tester, Mentor Posts: 1,017

    1) Its not currently implemented
    2) Good suggestions, made by others as well
    3) Up to the developer (there's only one, his name is Rohan)
    4) The kit is not gone - it exists at the number its given when you create it, until you power off. Just scroll back to it
    5) Could be a bug, I've requested a clarification
    6) Sounds like a bug, reported
    7) Hold <>-knob and press where note should end
    8) No to exfat, it has a huge licensing price, and its not necessary anyway, because you can simply convert bigger cards to FAT32. I'm currently using a 250GB SD.
    forums.synthstrom.com/discussion/comment/9142#Comment_9142

    ~ Distinguished Delugate ᕕ( ◎_◎)ᕗ

  • 1
    pbolgerpbolger ChristchurchPosts: 61

    i just wish there was an easy way of copying a patch from a kit to a synth and vise versa.

  • 0
    rudolphrapidrudolphrapid Beta Tester Posts: 129

    1) Since samples are stored on a shared place renaming a sample file should also involve renaming references across all of the kits/synth patches as well as songs on the card. Not something that is worth to risk, I think :)

  • 1
    feijaifeijai Washington, DCPosts: 43

    On Gizmo (a little arduino project I made) I have a "Are you Sure?" stage for many destructive operations. The Gizmo has an OKAY and a BACK button. If you perform a highly destructive operation via OKAY (or try to exit without saving via BACK), Gizmo will ask Are You Sure first. You have top to press OKAY to go ahead; BACK will cancel the operation.

    It occurs to me that the Are You Sure stage could also be used to deal with the Deluge's file browser problem as a backstop. Specifically, if by pressing BACK I would ordinarily be exiting the file browser, the Deluge could ask Are You Sure first. Perhaps this could be improved by omitting this step if I was in the file browser, didn't scroll or enter a subdirectory, but immediately pressed BACK.

    I understand that Shift-Kit, Shift-Synth, etc. can be ultimately reverted by hunting for your previous patch, modified synth, etc., but they are shocking errors to make. They, and similar stuff like this, would really benefit from an Are You Sure stage.

    One last item: why do shift-NEW etc. work in clip view? You'd think that in clip view, shift-NEW would imply making a new synth, but of course it is not. It'd reduce [my] error to have them only work in the view for which they're appropriate: song view.

  • 0
    feijaifeijai Washington, DCPosts: 43

    It's good to hear that > 32GB is supported on the Deluge: perhaps the manual should be changed (it says 32GB max). The main issue, I guess, is that neither OS X nor Windows will format for FAT32 on > 32GB; you have to use a custom formatting option.

  • 0
    pikeypikey IrelandPosts: 17

    +1 on the file browser back behaviour not stopping at the root directory. I've been using the Deluge for about half a year and I still get hit by this. Personally I would like to see the grid used more in file browser operations.

    -1 on having a bunch of 'are you sure' questions blocking all actions. I would prefer having the back button be able to undo these type of actions.

  • 0
    feijaifeijai Washington, DCPosts: 43

    @pikey said:
    -1 on having a bunch of 'are you sure' questions blocking all actions. I would prefer having the back button be able to undo these type of actions.

    I would prefer that too. However as a software developer I'm only too aware that he's probably got several spots in his code where undo is not feasible or easy [because you're changing state in such a way that can't be put on the undo stack]. These almost always occur at bulk destructive operations, and so the standard alternative is to do ARE YOU SURE notices - but only for those bulk (and rare) operations.

    The best solution for the file browser problem would have been to have a separate button for up vs. escape. But there is no good choice of additional button on the Synthstrom's panel. So I think an ARE YOU SURE backstop is the only reasonable choice here. :-(

  • 0
    feijaifeijai Washington, DCPosts: 43

    @feijai said:

    • I can't figure out how to wrap note lengths. That is, i can't click on a note at beat 12, then extend its length to beat 4. Am I missing something?

    @Icoustik said:
    7) Hold <>-knob and press where note should end

    What the...

    Okay, so if you hold a pad and then press another pad, you can extend the length, but only to the right. If you press a pad to the left of the original pad it just enters a new note

    BUT if you press the <> button and press another pad, you can extend the length, INCLUDING pressing a pad to the right, wrapping around.

    Why the inconsistency?

  • 0
    IcoustikIcoustik NorwayModerator, Beta Tester, Mentor Posts: 1,017

    @feijai said:

    @feijai said:

    • I can't figure out how to wrap note lengths. That is, i can't click on a note at beat 12, then extend its length to beat 4. Am I missing something?

    @Icoustik said:
    7) Hold <>-knob and press where note should end

    What the...

    Okay, so if you hold a pad and then press another pad, you can extend the length, but only to the right. If you press a pad to the left of the original pad it just enters a new note

    BUT if you press the <> button and press another pad, you can extend the length, INCLUDING pressing a pad to the right, wrapping around.

    Why the inconsistency?

    Because two button presses shouldn't always be needed for extending notes, hence the first operation, and how would extending from one page to another work if not with the <> operation? :)

    ~ Distinguished Delugate ᕕ( ◎_◎)ᕗ

  • 0
    IcoustikIcoustik NorwayModerator, Beta Tester, Mentor Posts: 1,017
    edited October 2019

    @feijai said:
    It's good to hear that > 32GB is supported on the Deluge: perhaps the manual should be changed (it says 32GB max). The main issue, I guess, is that neither OS X nor Windows will format for FAT32 on > 32GB; you have to use a custom formatting option.

    Well the reason is that the exfat file system is "proprietary" and Synthstrom would have to pay massive bucks to the SD association in order to be able to use it. Hence, use the third party software. Simple as that :)

    Post edited by Icoustik on

    ~ Distinguished Delugate ᕕ( ◎_◎)ᕗ

  • 0
    IcoustikIcoustik NorwayModerator, Beta Tester, Mentor Posts: 1,017

    "One last item: why do shift-NEW etc. work in clip view? You'd think that in clip view, shift-NEW would imply making a new synth, but of course it is not. It'd reduce [my] error to have them only work in the view for which they're appropriate: song view."

    I disagree :) And once you learn the buttons, you won't make that mistake.

    ~ Distinguished Delugate ᕕ( ◎_◎)ᕗ

  • 0
    feijaifeijai Washington, DCPosts: 43

    @Icoustik said:
    Because two button presses shouldn't always be needed for extending notes, hence the first operation, and how would extending from one page to another work if not with the <> operation? :)

    I think you are confusing necessary with sufficient conditions. The <> operation works in a logical way but the pad-pressing does not when it could trivially be made to do so. I think it's a clear but easily fixed design error.

    @Icoustik said:
    Well the reason is that the exfat file system is "proprietary" and Synthstrom would have to pay massive bucks to the SD association in order to be able to use it. Hence, use the third party software. Simple as that :)

    No, I got that. But, once again, the manual is wrong.

    @Icoustik said:
    I disagree :) And once you learn the buttons, you won't make that mistake.

    Putting on my interface designer hat: mystery meat navigation is never, ever a good idea. And the Deluge has a fair bit of it. Interfaces should make the common items easy and intuitive for beginners, and make the uncommon items possible. Design for beginners is the most important part of an interface, because for most applications, beginners are 90% of your userbase.

    "Once you learn the buttons" tells me that perhaps you may no longer grasp the perspective of the beginner on this device. You're the 10%. You need to think like a newbie!

  • 1
    p_watsp_wats TorontoPosts: 111

    @Icoustik said:
    Well the reason is that the exfat file system is "proprietary" and Synthstrom would have to pay massive bucks to the SD association in order to be able to use it. Hence, use the third party software. Simple as that :)

    No, I got that. But, once again, the manual is wrong.

    The manual isn't wrong if 32GB is what Synthstrom supports. Someone pointed out you can use larger cards if you format differently, which is a bit of a hack, so Synthstrom may not want to be responsible for people formatting their cards wrong and losing data etc.

    It's similar to how someone figured out you could swap firmware between the Electribe sampler and synth---Korg didn't put that in the manual either, but it's possible to hack it.

    I also formatted my card on my Mac with no third party software, for what it's worth.

  • 0
    IcoustikIcoustik NorwayModerator, Beta Tester, Mentor Posts: 1,017

    @feijai said:

    @Icoustik said:
    Because two button presses shouldn't always be needed for extending notes, hence the first operation, and how would extending from one page to another work if not with the <> operation? :)

    I think you are confusing necessary with sufficient conditions. The <> operation works in a logical way but the pad-pressing does not when it could trivially be made to do so. I think it's a clear but easily fixed design error.

    @Icoustik said:
    Well the reason is that the exfat file system is "proprietary" and Synthstrom would have to pay massive bucks to the SD association in order to be able to use it. Hence, use the third party software. Simple as that :)

    No, I got that. But, once again, the manual is wrong.

    @Icoustik said:
    I disagree :) And once you learn the buttons, you won't make that mistake.

    Putting on my interface designer hat: mystery meat navigation is never, ever a good idea. And the Deluge has a fair bit of it. Interfaces should make the common items easy and intuitive for beginners, and make the uncommon items possible. Design for beginners is the most important part of an interface, because for most applications, beginners are 90% of your userbase.

    "Once you learn the buttons" tells me that perhaps you may no longer grasp the perspective of the beginner on this device. You're the 10%. You need to think like a newbie!

    Newbies need to learn the interface just like a newbie guitar player needs to learn how a guitar works, my friend.
    Its an instrument. The Deluge is designed like this - learn how to use it, then play it easily. Its not really that hard to memorize some shortcuts and button functions :)

    p_wats above nailed it regarding the manual being "wrong".

    ~ Distinguished Delugate ᕕ( ◎_◎)ᕗ

  • 0
    feijaifeijai Washington, DCPosts: 43

    @p_wats said:
    The manual isn't wrong if 32GB is what Synthstrom supports. Someone pointed out you can use larger cards if you format differently, which is a bit of a hack, so Synthstrom may not want to be responsible for people formatting their cards wrong and losing data etc.

    ??? It's not "formatting differently". It's just formatting larger cards. You can format up to 16TB as FAT32.

    The manual says: "A card of up to 32GB may be used, as it needs to be FAT32 format." But people report that 64+ works fine, and that seems to be the case for me too. Does a 64GB card formatted as FAT32 in fact work properly in the Deluge or not? And if it works properly, then wouldn't it be best if the manual was revised?

    Another question about functionality.

    • It seems that the Deluge can easily increase a note's length beyond a single step (at the current resolution) but cannot decrease it beyond a single step. For example, power up the machine and enter some notes. If you want some of those notes to sound stacatto, is there any way to do this other than (1) increase the grid resolution/zoom (2) manually modify the note length (3) restore the grid resolution/zoom? That is quite convoluted, and this is a very common need. Did I miss something in the manual?

    It seems to me that pressing a pad and turning a knob could be used to reduce (and maybe increase?) the note length beyond the standard length: perhaps setting it to a percentage of the step length. The obvious choice would be the <> knob, except that this was assigned to changing note volume. I'd reassign note volume to up/down, which to me seems more intuitive, and use <> for reducing note length.

  • 0
    IcoustikIcoustik NorwayModerator, Beta Tester, Mentor Posts: 1,017

    @feijai said:

    @p_wats said:
    The manual isn't wrong if 32GB is what Synthstrom supports. Someone pointed out you can use larger cards if you format differently, which is a bit of a hack, so Synthstrom may not want to be responsible for people formatting their cards wrong and losing data etc.

    ??? It's not "formatting differently". It's just formatting larger cards. You can format up to 16TB as FAT32.

    The manual says: "A card of up to 32GB may be used, as it needs to be FAT32 format." But people report that 64+ works fine, and that seems to be the case for me too. Does a 64GB card formatted as FAT32 in fact work properly in the Deluge or not? And if it works properly, then wouldn't it be best if the manual was revised?

    Another question about functionality.

    • It seems that the Deluge can easily increase a note's length beyond a single step (at the current resolution) but cannot decrease it beyond a single step. For example, power up the machine and enter some notes. If you want some of those notes to sound stacatto, is there any way to do this other than (1) increase the grid resolution/zoom (2) manually modify the note length (3) restore the grid resolution/zoom? That is quite convoluted, and this is a very common need. Did I miss something in the manual?

    It seems to me that pressing a pad and turning a knob could be used to reduce (and maybe increase?) the note length beyond the standard length: perhaps setting it to a percentage of the step length. The obvious choice would be the <> knob, except that this was assigned to changing note volume. I'd reassign note volume to up/down, which to me seems more intuitive, and use <> for reducing note length.

    The up/down moves the note. So no. If you want different lengths you can record the notes live into the sequence with quantize off. Or you'll need to zoom and modify the length. I disagree about holding a note and turning a knob, that would either have to change the zoom level anyway to indicate the set length, or an entirely new measuring step system on the screen - sounds more convoluted to me to implement, not a priority anyway above all the other stuff people want :)

    About the SD card, as I've already mentioned, yes cards formatted to FAT32 works fine, but there are potential legal issues with the manual telling people to format exfat SD's to FAT32 using third party software, so Synthstrom is playing it cool.
    "Formatting differently" as in windows won't allow you to format exfat to FAT32, hence the third party program.

    ~ Distinguished Delugate ᕕ( ◎_◎)ᕗ

  • 0
    feijaifeijai Washington, DCPosts: 43

    @Icoustik said:

    The up/down moves the note. So no.

    Yeah, I just figured that out. Well, some other knob else maybe. Or hold the pad down and PRESS-dial <> ?

    I disagree about holding a note and turning a knob, that would either have to change the zoom level anyway to indicate the set length

    Why? On a great many sequencers step length is measured by percentage of the step. It's very common and pretty weird for the Deluge to be missing.

    Offhand I'd do it this way. At a given zoom level, the length of a note is inexact -- specifically, the note doesn't necessarily last all the way through the final step. So I'd define the knob as allowing you to change how much of the final step it lasts, as a value 0% ... 100%, without having to zoom in, scroll scroll scroll to find the note again, then modify, then zoom back out again (!!).

    So in some sense if you have a note length being currently displayed as 4 steps, in fact it's really 3 + x steps, where x is some value from 0.0 exclusive to 1.0 inclusive. The knob would let you quickly change the value of x. This would have the nice property of allowing you to "shorten" a single-step note in a way common to many other devices: the note is essentially 0 + x long, so your knob is just changing the percentage of that step. Seem this approach would be both clean and useful.

  • 1
    amiga909amiga909 Central EuropePosts: 1,078

    absolutely feijai, this has been discussed and there is dedicated thread for this http://forums.synthstrom.com/discussion/694/fine-note-length-adjustment

    no wrong doing, actually i embrace criticism because it shows somebody cares. as i see it, and probably others too:

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