Question about sending MIDI CC

mjunker

I noticed I don't fully understand how Midi CC should be used with the Deluge.

I have some external gear for which I want to program things like Filter Cutoff and Envelopes per Midi clip in Deluge.

When I just set a global MIDI CC in a clip (without recording automation) I notice that it gets sent out immediately when I change it and is also saved with the Midi clip. However when I restart a clip it doesn't get sent out again. The only way i figured out how to send out Midi CC every time is when i set the Midi CC on the first step of the sequence. However then I have to set the Midi CC to a close value to the global value of the clip which makes this a bit cumbersome.

Shouldn't the global midi cc value of a clip be sent when the clip starts? Or am I missing something?

amiga909

Good question. Did not know a Midi CC is sent when assigning a CC to a knob.
Haven't tried yet, IMHO regarding to the manual it should not send values on assignment, only if you turn the knob after assignment.
"The parameter knob is now assigned to the MIDI parameter. Now, turning it will control the associated parameter on your external synthesizer"

Actually, I prefer it doesnt send out values when there is no step event. On the other hand it might be more consistent if it does.
For example in Synth mode the "global" or default value does get applied, there is some implicit automation going on. Example:

• Init new Synth preset with first clip
• Clone clip (2nd clip) and launch
• Record automation in cloned clip for Delay amount, say a sweep that starts at 0 value and ends at value 20
• Launch first clip: Delay amount is not 20, it is set to the value 0. Because thats the "global" or default value for that clip.

IMHO, the way to tackle this has to be an automation view so its easier to understand and lookup what is going on.
http://forums.synthstrom.com/discussion/899/step-automation-view-automation-drawing-track-long-envelope-drawing#latest

mjunker

Yes I agree it would be more consistent if it would send out clip midi cc every time it plays.

As I understand you can't record constant cc value right? You have to move the cc in order to get it recorded.

mjunker

I also noticed that my solution only works if there is more than one note in the clip which also doesn't make it easier to program sending cc values.

Also it's not possible to record constant automation. There should be an easy way to send out cc messages for a clip. Anybody else has any solution for this?

amiga909

@mjunker said:

Also it's not possible to record constant automation. There should be an easy way to send out cc messages for a clip. Anybody else has any solution for this?

What is "constant automation"? Sending the same CC value all the time? A CC needs to be sent once, it is not like a midi note with a note OFF message. I guess the problem is that you get somehow unwanted CC values sent out.
I'd try just setting the first step and record automation by holding the pad and turning the knob. You might need to delete automation first (delete automation command).

Probably I dont get it, please describe step by step. I have an idea this is related to a similar report when somebody wanted to record a Volume ramp and it was a bit odd to do that because of "global automation".

Are you maybe looking for a kind of "send snapshot" function? Some midi controllers have that functionality: sends all params as stored with a preset. I wouldnt know Deluge has that function, AFAIK would be a new suggestion.

mjunker

By constant automation I mean that it should send out just one single Midi CC message once ideally at the beginning of when the clip plays. I understand that it won't send out a constant stream of midi messages.

So I experimented a bit and now I understand the problem a bit better and can try to explain how I approached it:

1. I created a new midi clip
2. I added a note at the beginning of the clip
3. I mapped one of the parameters to a midi cc value (e.g. Level -> CC 7)
4. I hold down the pad of the first note I created and configure a value with the gold upper encoder. When I change it I can see that the CC message is sent as expected.
5. I play the clip, but can't see that a cc message is sent
6. I add a second note to the clip.
7. When I play the clip still no cc note is sent out
8. I repeat step 4 but with the second note and configure the same cc value for the second note.
9. Now when I play the clip I can see that the two different cc values are sent out

It seems that I have to configure at least two cc values in a clip in order that the message is being sent out. This makes it quite cumbersome if I just want to send out a single cc message per clip. I hope my explanation helped to illustrate the problem.

My motivation is the following: I want to integrate the Deluge with my modular so I can save some settings in Deluge. I'm using the Expert Sleeper FH2 which can convert cc messages to cv and I would like to "preset" different parameters with that. With the method above I kind of managed to do this but it's not that easy to do, since I always have to create at least two notes which I then set to the same value.

And thanks for taking the time to help!

amiga909

just tried it and think there is at least 1 bug. in 3.03 and 3.0.3beta
posted a report in the FB beta group.

mjunker

Great thanks a lot!

amiga909

Got a reply from a Rohan, he fixed a bug in 3.03 automation can get duplicated (recorded on the target). Don't know if this has troubled you.

About the first step thing: Yes, it seems you need 2 notes. Note: if you just want automation and want step automation without notes, you can mute the note rows, the automation is sent nevertheless. So, still I'd go for step automation to do what you want.

Rohans reply to the first note thing:
Step automation" editing on the Deluge will apply the set value right up until the start of the next note to the right. If there's only one note present, it will apply the set value to the whole clip's length.

The manual explains why you need 2 notes. And what the "global"/saved-per-preset value does.
The reasoning for 2 notes seems to be, automation should always last as long until the next note event comes in. I guess it is somehow like there always is automation for every step, an automation view (linked thread above) would never be "empty" (it could be "0" but not empty).

Manual:
Automation can also be manually set for a time-region based on a note which is present in the sequence. Simply hold down the note's pad in clip view, and turn a parameter knob. The parameter value will be set just for the region of time beginning at that note and ending at the start of the next note. Having the region extended to the start of the next note in this way is helpful in many cases, preventing a return to the original parameter value from cutting in suddenly as the note’s sound releases.

Once a parameter has automation applied in some region of a clip, the Deluge considers the parameter to be automated entirely, with its previous unautomated value applying in all other regions. It is also worth noting that all parameter automation, once created, exists independently of any notes, meaning that even if notes are deleted, or more notes added, the parameter automation will still exist in its region.

Maybe others can give an easy explanation how you can achieve what you want to do. I have to say I need to think more about it, I haven't fully understood how automation works, especially with Midi. About the behavior of Midi clips should send out a CC for the "global/preset" value I don't have an opinion yet.

amiga909

Learned something new about the Deluge. I understand it like so: If you have manual step automation you need to set a region, setting a manual step automation on the first step only is interpreted as no automation, hence no CC is sent. Maybe not quite intuitive for Midi CC's but it is consistent with synth automation.

Nice diagram about this here (page 62-63)
https://synthstrom-audible-deluge.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/Deluge-Guidebook-3p0-Rel1.pdf

mjunker

Ok yeah makes sense from what is written in the manual. Thanks!