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Will a firmware update improve the internal effects *AND* add multi-export functionality?

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synchrosystemsynchrosystem Greater Los AngelesPosts: 10

Given the widely acknowledged weakness of the onboard effects, I'm coming to the conclusion that I should let go of my Deluge unless:
– internal effects are improved
– it becomes quicker & easier to export/bounce songs to a DAW (where better effects can be applied)

Is anyone aware if either of these features are a priority for Synthstrom, or if decent hacks have been developed (for the latter)?

Thanks so much & hoping to stay in the ecoysytem ;)

Comments

  • 0
    jensgjensg Berlin, GermanyBeta Tester Posts: 251

    dont think so. they battle the OLED replacement bugs and implement fringe features (looking at you MPE) rather then improve the sound and workflow.

    thinking about selling too.

  • 0
    synchrosystemsynchrosystem Greater Los AngelesPosts: 10

    Thanks @jensg . Any other perspectives out there on this? Clearly Synthstrom can't attend to all upgrades and once but the ones I mentioned seem key to providing a genuine all-in-one synth/seq/sampler for the creation AND finishing (or even efficient sketchpad'ing) of electronic music. If there's a sense that these upgrades are still a year out, for example, I'd see some sense to hanging on to the Deluge.

  • 0
    jensgjensg Berlin, GermanyBeta Tester Posts: 251

    I have no insight into the inner workings of Synthstrom.

    But from what I see, they are more likely to add new sequencer features and steer into a “MIDI brain” direction, rather then a full on workstation that can deliver a finished product.

    And stuff like fx and export have not been touched or talked about in the last two years anywhere on the forum or discord as getting tackled by the devs.

    So I would manage my expectations.

  • 0
    HeptagenHeptagen Posts: 273

    @synchrosystem said:
    Any other perspectives out there on this?

    Not a different perspective, I agree with @jensg that the focus seems to be deluge as a midi brain, not as a standalone full workstation. I also agree that the internal effects and missing quick export features are the "achilles heel" of the deluge in my use case. Also I think they will be chasing oled bugs for a while now and even before oled the update cycles have become waaay longer than before, so I assume it will continue in this direction. I don't see a reason to expect the opposite. And you won't get any official information from them on this.

    I thought about selling my unit too, but at the moment it's just too convenient to whip it out and have something going in a matter of seconds. There's nothing that I know of that can beat the immediacy of the deluge. But yeah, the weak spots are definitely there and they hurt.

  • 0
    jensgjensg Berlin, GermanyBeta Tester Posts: 251

    The Jack of all trades / master of none problem rears it’s head in this case I guess.

    I must say that I don’t like the direction development is going. The idea behind buying a 1200 dollar machine (at least for me) was having a complete workstation.

    This idea is not followed anymore or has never been the goal at synthstrom.

    It’s kinda sad actually.

  • 0
    synchrosystemsynchrosystem Greater Los AngelesPosts: 10

    The "Midi brain" idea is all fine & dandy. I'm sure that's of value to the Deluge community. However the onboard synth engine and rompler features are a little wasted unless the effects (and/or export) are improved. (I'm thinking of going over to the Roland MC-707 & TR8s. I'm aware of their limitations, but they have WYSIWYG immediacy, midi, effects and export covered.)

  • 3
    LodroLodro CanadaPosts: 6

    @jensg said:
    dont think so. they battle the OLED replacement bugs and implement fringe features (looking at you MPE) rather then improve the sound and workflow.

    I wouldn't call MPE a "fringe" feature. In fact, it's the primary reason I just bought one, and that's true of a number of other people I know in community. Just because it isn't important to you, doesn't mean there isn't an audience. The MPE support built into Deluge is miles ahead of what anyone else is doing and very very cool ... I don't think people have quite caught up to just what is possible with MPE, so it is exciting times for many of us. :)

    The idea behind buying a 1200 dollar machine (at least for me) was having a complete workstation.

    And on the other hand, it's fair that others have different features in mind, but no where in the product materials do I see Deluge advertised as a "workstation"? It certainly seems to have a number of features like that, but having just gotten rid of a Roland Fantom-0, I'm not sure this all in one solution could ever be a master of all. No matter how good the effects are, there are always going to be better out there. That said, it was certainly disappointing to read of lack of USB audio out. Is it really the case that you can't move multiple audio tracks to DAW?

  • 1
    HeptagenHeptagen Posts: 273
    edited December 2022

    @Lodro said:
    Is it really the case that you can't move multiple audio tracks to DAW?

    It isn't possible to get any audio through usb, not even the sum. You have to use the analog outs or resample to sd card which then has to go to into an sd card reader so your pc can access it because you can't access the sd card through usb. (usb is for midi and charging only atm) If you want to make friends with the deluge, I'd advice you to let it tell you where to go because it can be quite stubborn if you want to force it somewhere it doesn't want to go.

    Post edited by Heptagen on
  • 1
    Too_MereToo_Mere Chicago, IL, USABeta Tester, Mentor Posts: 969

    Let’s say I have a 4 min song (longer than mine usually are) with 15 different tracks/instruments.
    That’ll take about an hour to resample each track or record them each straight to my DAW.
    Yeah, that’s a good chunk of time. But also not a highly attentive process. You can read a book while it’s happening.
    Yes, other devices may make this process quicker and easier. But it means sacrificing a lot just to get most of an hour per song back. Worth it to me. If not to you, then sell it and deal with the shortcomings of another device instead.

    Can you believe people use to cut magnetic tape to make records? ;)

  • 0
    jensgjensg Berlin, GermanyBeta Tester Posts: 251

    To sum this up: where is the Deluge headed?

  • 1
    Too_MereToo_Mere Chicago, IL, USABeta Tester, Mentor Posts: 969

    @jensg said:
    To sum this up: where is the Deluge headed?

    This is the help forum. Not really for questions like this.

    Ian pretty well covered the stance on this in the replies of this post:
    https://forums.synthstrom.com/discussion/3428/important-information-on-our-new-focus-on-these-forums-and-the-temporary-removal-of-feature-requests#latest

  • 0
    TraubTraub Beta Tester Posts: 8

    @Too_Mere said:
    Let’s say I have a 4 min song (longer than mine usually are) with 15 different tracks/instruments.
    That’ll take about an hour to resample each track or record them each straight to my DAW.
    Yeah, that’s a good chunk of time. But also not a highly attentive process. You can read a book while it’s happening.
    Yes, other devices may make this process quicker and easier. But it means sacrificing a lot just to get most of an hour per song back. Worth it to me. If not to you, then sell it and deal with the shortcomings of another device instead.

    Can you believe people use to cut magnetic tape to make records? ;)

    When I record to a computer I use the DAW to manually trigger each clip one by one via MIDI to make sure that the starting points of the clips are lined up precisely. What is the best way to simplify/automate the clip/track recording while making sure the timing is right? Preferably without having to do too much clicking & dragging in the DAW :)

  • 0
    Too_MereToo_Mere Chicago, IL, USABeta Tester, Mentor Posts: 969

    @Traub said:

    @Too_Mere said:
    Let’s say I have a 4 min song (longer than mine usually are) with 15 different tracks/instruments.
    That’ll take about an hour to resample each track or record them each straight to my DAW.
    Yeah, that’s a good chunk of time. But also not a highly attentive process. You can read a book while it’s happening.
    Yes, other devices may make this process quicker and easier. But it means sacrificing a lot just to get most of an hour per song back. Worth it to me. If not to you, then sell it and deal with the shortcomings of another device instead.

    Can you believe people use to cut magnetic tape to make records? ;)

    When I record to a computer I use the DAW to manually trigger each clip one by one via MIDI to make sure that the starting points of the clips are lined up precisely. What is the best way to simplify/automate the clip/track recording while making sure the timing is right? Preferably without having to do too much clicking & dragging in the DAW :)

    Have you tried using the Deluge’s arranger? Might be an easier way to trigger the clips.

  • 0
    LodroLodro CanadaPosts: 6

    So just to be clear, you can take a complete song and get it into your DAW -- it's just that people don't like the workflow of having to do it via SD card rather than direct USB? Because really this is fine with me, I don't mind waiting and dealing with a bit of a PITA as long as I have the capability to do this.

    I see it like photography I guess ... I have a somewhat older model of a Fuji camera that requires an SD card transfer, I've never been able to get wifi or USB to work. But I don't mind copying things over by hand, that's an entirely different part of my process. What it means in practice is that I spend more time getting things right to begin with in the camera and less time fiddling around with my mouse staring at a screen. So in a weird way it's actually better for me than a tightly integrated solution would be -- even though there are some things I can only do in Lightroom, I don't live there, I live with my camera.

    So I'm not looking for tight DAW integration at all, but otoh I know there are going to be some things I'll need a DAW for. As long as I can move complete projects over there and it doesn't require a lot of manual effort, I'm good.

  • 0
    Too_MereToo_Mere Chicago, IL, USABeta Tester, Mentor Posts: 969

    @Lodro said:
    So just to be clear, you can take a complete song and get it into your DAW -- it's just that people don't like the workflow of having to do it via SD card rather than direct USB? Because really this is fine with me, I don't mind waiting and dealing with a bit of a PITA as long as I have the capability to do this.

    I see it like photography I guess ... I have a somewhat older model of a Fuji camera that requires an SD card transfer, I've never been able to get wifi or USB to work. But I don't mind copying things over by hand, that's an entirely different part of my process. What it means in practice is that I spend more time getting things right to begin with in the camera and less time fiddling around with my mouse staring at a screen. So in a weird way it's actually better for me than a tightly integrated solution would be -- even though there are some things I can only do in Lightroom, I don't live there, I live with my camera.

    So I'm not looking for tight DAW integration at all, but otoh I know there are going to be some things I'll need a DAW for. As long as I can move complete projects over there and it doesn't require a lot of manual effort, I'm good.

    Absolutely! I do this for my tracks. Well, the {good} ones anyway haha. Worth it to me :)

  • -2
    jensgjensg Berlin, GermanyBeta Tester Posts: 251

    @Too_Mere said:

    @jensg said:
    To sum this up: where is the Deluge headed?

    This is the help forum. Not really for questions like this.

    Ian pretty well covered the stance on this in the replies of this post:
    https://forums.synthstrom.com/discussion/3428/important-information-on-our-new-focus-on-these-forums-and-the-temporary-removal-of-feature-requests#latest

    So again: will these features be implemented one day?

    The answer seems: no.

  • 3
    Too_MereToo_Mere Chicago, IL, USABeta Tester, Mentor Posts: 969

    @jensg said:

    @Too_Mere said:

    @jensg said:
    To sum this up: where is the Deluge headed?

    This is the help forum. Not really for questions like this.

    Ian pretty well covered the stance on this in the replies of this post:
    https://forums.synthstrom.com/discussion/3428/important-information-on-our-new-focus-on-these-forums-and-the-temporary-removal-of-feature-requests#latest

    So again: will these features be implemented one day?

    The answer seems: no.

    The answer isn’t no. And asking the question multiple times won’t get you a different answer. Especially after you’ve been told this isn’t the place for that.
    Read my answer again. Read Ian’s comments about plans for updates that I linked.
    I don’t know any more than you do.
    Please try to accept what people tell you.

  • 0
    jensgjensg Berlin, GermanyBeta Tester Posts: 251

    Yes, other devices may make this process quicker and easier. But it means sacrificing a lot just to get most of an hour per song back. Worth it to me. If not to you, then sell it and deal with the shortcomings of another device instead.

    Hmm, don’t know. Exporting in a better / faster / easier way is desirable either way and would probably attract a larger audience buying into the synthstrom ecosystem.

    The same goes for the fx. Right now they don’t really lend themselves to being “on par” for better productions. And key mastering tools like a compressor are missing.

    Can you believe people use to cut magnetic tape to make records? ;)

    I even know that they had smoke signals to communicate instead of the Internet :-)

    If the deluge wants to stand in this indecisive corner (half sampler / half MIDI sequencer), so be it. I don’t think this a smart move, given the competition in this market (grove boxes) niche is strong.

    The deluge is a tool and not a relict, so I am ok with trying to improve it. But then again: different folks, different strokes.

    Oh and the link you gave with Ian’s post: the 12 months of “archiving feature requests” are over, since 6 months :-) it’s literally the first talking point.

    But I guess it is a sacrilege to talk about wanting to improve the definitive weak point of the machine.

  • 0
    Too_MereToo_Mere Chicago, IL, USABeta Tester, Mentor Posts: 969

    @jensg said:

    Oh and the link you gave with Ian’s post: the 12 months of “archiving feature requests” are over, since 6 months :-) it’s literally the first talking point.

    Did you stop reading after that? Ian said there was 1300 requests at that time. Here’s Ian’s comment, specifically about sharing future plans, that I believe still applies:
    “Sorry Kenn :( we won't be sharing our dev plans, for many reasons.

    Many people just don't understand the time dev takes, even with "simple" things and workflow enhancements, some items have been on the agenda for close to 5 years. Our plan is a living and breathing beast and is absolutely liable to change at any given moment or head off in different directions.

    We just want people to stop waiting, to stop waiting around for a feature that might be years away or never come, we don't want people breathing down our necks or harassing us or getting frustrated because their idea of what we should be doing is not what we're doing. Haha, we just want people to enjoy the now, to play on their Deluge and to treat updates as gifts, treats and places to take them in new directions or streamline their workflow - not the be all and end all of their ability to create music.
    If we had a list of stuff we are planning to work on but not guaranteeing, all it will do is simply create an even greater conflict within the community where people debate the merits of dev over other dev and complain about the popularity of certain things or try to bolster their particular workflow as being more important.

    We want to enjoy being on our own forums and we can't do that if people are constantly pestering us. Haha, people are always sliding in requests - subtlety or not so subtlety (lol, did you really just shoehorn in some requests into a discussion about why we're removing requests? :D haha, I love the cheek so will leave those up for the short term, but yeah, will prob edit/delete at some point to keep in with new policy ), and publishing a list of just a bunch of things will only make the debate much more intense.
    We just want to chat and enjoy the Deluge with people but frustratingly keep having people wedge their requests in-front of us and all it does is makes us feel bummed, bummed that people aren't having the best experience.
    We did it to ourselves :) We built an awesome machine and awesome community filled with people who care intensely about it, we love the passion that people have, but we also just want to feel like we can hang out with our community and not feel constant pressure.

    We hear everything, we know everything, we know all the gripes, haha, I hear them in my sleep, one persons "all it needs is this" is another persons "what a waste of time". We've proved our commitment to development and refinement - now is the time for peeps just to sit back, chill, make some music and let us do our thing for a while. We've heard everyone, now give us the space to make it happen :)

    Lets instead talk about stuff like playing shows in this new world, how to make great presets, how best to release songs, how to talk with labels, great free software synths, how to master for release, how to perform live on a deluge, how to speed up writing in the arranger, best hardware partners for the Delly, how to make videos that aren't just "hands on gear"... lets share songs and videos, share presets and samples, share tutorials and hacks, lets get creative, lets have fun and have some interesting discussion :)

    Personally I feel that so many people are so hung up on a feature or two that they're letting the world go by and that these forums should have been a place where all users made each other better by sharing awesome tips and workflow rather than getting anxious over why something isn't happening as fast as they'd like”
    -Ian

    But I guess it is a sacrilege to talk about wanting to improve the definitive weak point of the machine.

    I wouldn’t call it “a sacrilege”. Just a bothersome question to repeatedly ask in a help section.
    I don’t have those answers and no one from Synthstrom will give them to you here.

    But if you need help with understanding current functionality of the Deluge, let me know! :)

  • -1
    jensgjensg Berlin, GermanyBeta Tester Posts: 251

    I did read the whole thread.

    And you probably also read the replies. Synthstrom takes a weirdly hard stance on this topic and it sure alienates me and apparently others too.

    I am not here to argue, but knowing if this is ever going to be implemented makes a huge difference in workflow / gear needed etc for a complete track. This is especially true for people getting into the deluge world. I found my solution with an ipad and an iRig interface for Mastering.

    Anyways, so the result is: no answer.

  • 1
    LodroLodro CanadaPosts: 6

    Yep, I'd take that as a no. ;) And wow, just to say I came to this forum and it does strike me as strange that there seem to be so many squeaky wheels, hahah. I guess I kind of get it, like "if it just had this one thing I could throw everything else away" but man do I get Ian's frustration. His post is about as clear, reasonable, in depth and just plain human as I've seen from a developer - I'd never buy a device based on some future promise and that's exactly what he is suggesting. If you're still invested in Deluge you must see a unique value in it as it is designed now, and if you don't, sell the Deluge and buy something else. Seems straightforward. :)

    Otherwise, just respect that for small boutique companies, everything is an opportunity cost, especially wasting time on forums explaining the same point over and over. And I don't think Stynthstorm's primary chalenge is not being able to sell enough boxes.

    Honestly, I looked at grooveboxes, I've looked at Polyend, Elektron, etc.. spent literally months doing research and none of them come close to doing what this single device does as well as it does. Elektron has no grid, Play has only samples, no built in sound and you can't even sample from it. At best I'd be buying a sequencer and a synth and beyond expense connecting up three devices, mixer, etc.. when I can have two battery powered deveices working together over BT midi? Amazing. Just MO.

  • 1
    LodroLodro CanadaPosts: 6
    edited November 2022

    Sorry, one other thing. I actually do agree with the point people make about Open Sourcing the deluge software itself. It's a scary thing for a hardware developer to do because it feels like giving away the family jewels. But in practice, no one is going to try to reimplement a clone of the Deluge. (I hear Behringer knocking on the door, hang on while I go tell them to get lost..) This is what Roger Linn does with the Linnstrument, and I think it works marvellously. A big hidden advantage of that it allows a simple answer: you want that feature, here are the keys to the shop, build it yourself. Which of course, no one actually ever does. Because embedded hardware development is really hard. :smiley:

    Post edited by Lodro on
  • 0
    volstehvolsteh CroatiaPosts: 385
    edited November 2022

    Lets be realistic, better effects not gonna happen, the cpu struggles as it is. If you need good effects onboard your box, look elsewhere. They are out there, probably with a 4 or 8 track limitation, monophonic but they are there...
    Im ok with getting a effect or a NTS1 along and embrace resampling :D

    Post edited by volsteh on

    🅽🅾🆅🅸🅲🅴 🅳🅴🅻🆄🅶🅸🅾🅽🅸🆂🆃?

  • 0
    synchrosystemsynchrosystem Greater Los AngelesPosts: 10

    Thanks all for the replies and @Too_Mere, apologies if this was the wrong place to put this query. Either way, it was answered well enough for my decision process! Moving to the Roland ecosystem but may hang on to the Deluge for use as an external synth/rompler. Was pinning my hopes on a Deluge + Faderfox MX12 combo as a centerpiece but will put that on ice. Workflows are individual, aren't they? Cheers all & enjoy this fun box.

  • 0
    Too_MereToo_Mere Chicago, IL, USABeta Tester, Mentor Posts: 969

    @synchrosystem all good. At least you were originally asking about potential hacks as well.

    I’ll just say, the extent of feature updates since I bought my Deluge in 2018 is huge. There’s very little that I’d imagine is off the table in terms of possibilities. I don’t know of another company that has continued to update a released device to the extent Synthstrom has, nor have I seen a company share a roadmap of their future update plans beyond an immanent firmware release.
    So it’s just odd to me when people expect it to do more things, and do them better. And to think Synthstrom owes them an explanation of future updates.
    I’m always happy to help people with workflow or functionality questions. Just gets annoying when people use this space to simply vent or complain. Not at all saying that was the intention of your post. But you can see how it can devolve into that.

    That said, use what works best for you and feeds your inspiration and creativity. Cheers! :)

  • 2
    tbeltranstbeltrans Minnesota, USAPosts: 4

    @Lodro said:
    Sorry, one other thing. I actually do agree with the point people make about Open Sourcing the deluge software itself. It's a scary thing for a hardware developer to do because it feels like giving away the family jewels. But in practice, no one is going to try to reimplement a clone of the Deluge. (I hear Behringer knocking on the door, hang on while I go tell them to get lost..) This is what Roger Linn does with the Linnstrument, and I think it works marvellously. A big hidden advantage of that it allows a simple answer: you want that feature, here are the keys to the shop, build it yourself. Which of course, no one actually ever does. Because embedded hardware development is really hard. :smiley:

    I am new here, but having been a software engineer doing embedded development during my now retired working life, I have a thought on this.

    Opening the source code to the community would cause a support nightmare. Folks would be reporting problems that they themselves caused and support therefore has no way to recreate.

    Tony

  • 1
    tbeltranstbeltrans Minnesota, USAPosts: 4

    @tbeltrans said:

    @Lodro said:
    Sorry, one other thing. I actually do agree with the point people make about Open Sourcing the deluge software itself. It's a scary thing for a hardware developer to do because it feels like giving away the family jewels. But in practice, no one is going to try to reimplement a clone of the Deluge. (I hear Behringer knocking on the door, hang on while I go tell them to get lost..) This is what Roger Linn does with the Linnstrument, and I think it works marvellously. A big hidden advantage of that it allows a simple answer: you want that feature, here are the keys to the shop, build it yourself. Which of course, no one actually ever does. Because embedded hardware development is really hard. :smiley:

    I am new here, but having been a software engineer doing embedded development during my now retired working life, I have a thought on this.

    Opening the source code to the community would cause a support nightmare. Folks would be reporting problems that they themselves caused and support therefore has no way to recreate.

    Tony

    Edit: Not to mention folks wanting to send their sources to Synthstrom to debug. This would be as much a conflict if interest as the concern of somebody stealing ideas. The conflict would be that those doing their own development would be asking Synthstrom to deviate from their own plans to develop something that one specific user is trying to accomplish. It is a no-win situation.

    Tony

  • 0
    TOTALTOTAL Posts: 110
    edited December 2022

    In a broader sense, any development / "ownership" decision at this level of maturity of the device needs to be taken increasingly more cautiously. It is a great achievement I think to have kept a unique device on the market for so long, adding major elements in a way which harmonises with what's there already. Very easy to run out of buttons - or hands, get into all sorts of dead ends.

    How big the additional branches have been planted into the original trunk, you can tell, for example, by how Song is not song mode but repository of some sort, but it took Arrangement to shift this perspective.
    Keeping the options open to respond to the market gives a chance that this same device (OLEDed though) will stay in production, with no siblings, which benefits the whole community.

    Fingers crossed for retaining compatibility of future improvements with the original (non-OLED) design. Getting all the info from a matrix of buttons works makes the composer experience even more tactile and might never get dated.
    Even a tiny OLED can surely be packed with more information, yet the "raw" approach secures higher standards for logic and simplicity.

    Regarding the effects, in the face of finite resources, I would hope refinements of the existing concept to make the tool even more versatile and the process even more flowing are given higher priority. Those little things such as the ability to scroll to the second, third or fourth quarter of a view (show bar as 1234, 2341, 3412 or 4123) at any level will make a whole lot of a difference, although I will treat them as pleasant surprise.

    Importantly, with more effects you might need more cpu and ram... to hell with this power race. Personally, I feel I am past this upgrade frenzy and would rather stick with simple form - and with composition rather than sound design. This device will never be a H8000 or match SoundToys.

    Happy to see in 10 years Deluge make the most of its present resources. Think of Volvo.

    Post edited by TOTAL on
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