MIDI external "master" keyboard to record clips without constantly re-learning?
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Earth, Solar SystemBeta Tester Posts: 15
Hello all, new to the Deluge, forgive me if this is covered elsewhere. I've looked and searched through the manual but it's not obvious how to do (or if I can do) something that's fairly basic to most MIDI sequencers that I've used in the past, and that is to assign a master keyboard controller (say on MIDI channel 1) as the recording input for whichever clip is currently active/selected, or armed for record. This assignment "follows" the active or armed clip, and doesn't "stick" to it, so as you skip around from clip to clip, you don't need to re-assign/re-learn the input keyboard again.
Background / Problem
As I understand it, you can "learn" a MIDI keyboard as the note input for a given clip, but that "sticks" so that that particular clip / track's MIDI instrument is then always played by that MIDI keyboard and if you want to use it to record another MIDI channel on another clip, you need to 1) first "un-learn" it from the clip it's assigned to and then 2) re-"learn" it to the new clip. That's fairly frustrating, especially when you don't remember which clip you last assigned it to.
N.B. The assignments seem to "stack" instead of "stealing"... I'd accept an option to "steal" if a new assignment duplicates a previous one; that would probably solve this mess another way - but a master keyboard option is still by far the most straightforward as no further learn/assign step is required at all.
So here's the question:
Is there a way to do what many other sequencers do and assign a MIDI channel as a master channel, so that whatever clip is active (whether playing or recording) notes coming in on that channel plays into that active/armed clip (and if no clip is active it's ignored)?
If not, how do those of you who build up songs with a lot of external MIDI instruments (or plugins or multitimbral synths) and a single keyboard to play any of them build up a song rapidly?
** Note **
I've considered the possibility of changing the channel on the controlling keyboard and learning a new channel per clip, but that doesn't solve the problem, because as the song builds/develops, multiple clips are going to play the same instrument (sometimes with different patches and banks, too). For the same reason, making a template song doesn't solve it, either.
Answers
Yeah, that's annoying. Had the same problem.
Would be nice if it was either auto unlearn when learning a new clip, or just grabbed the input from the keyboard when selecting a (any) midi clip, like my previous controller did.
What's your asking really doesn't exist in the current software version. For what it's worth, what I do is I have all my midi gear with keyboards going to a merge box and then into the deluge. That way each keyboard is live, and when I learn one it learns them all. It doesn't matter what channel they're transmitting on, as the deluge seems to ignore incoming midi channels (correct?). It's rather simple in song mode to just hold the learn button - any row that has a memorized input controller will blink rapidly. You can click on the row to unlearn, then continue to hold the learn button and tap the row you want to learn, hit a key and you're good to go. Not ideal, but very quick and visual. About the same amount of time as changing the midi channel on a controller. Plus you can learn multiple rows for simultaneous layering.
One thing to know about the Deluge is that you have to "unlearn" your own mind. A lot of manufacturers went with the "status quo" on how to do things over the years, of which we've been trained, and of which the Deluge doesn't always follow. I find that refreshing as it brings me to another way of thinking that's more out of the box and expansive. But sometimes teaching an old dog new tricks..... well, I'm 65, so I've seen it all - purchased my first Mini Moog in 1976!
I agree. I also think deluge needs a feature/option that the active clip accepts all MIDI channels.
@Radius9999 Yeah that's what I'm doing (in a sense) - learn, record, unlearn, move on. It's just ... ugh. Gets in the way and if I forget I end up triggering a synth part I'd learned on some other clip somewhere and then I have to go find it. I've got a fairly decent habit of it down now, but I still want to metaphorically launch it out the window sometimes.
Shame an "input" or "master" midi channel that follows the active record, or as @Alter says, just let the active clip accept any incoming MIDI notes (or at least on the clip's channel, or something) -- there are many ways to solve this, any of them would be better than the current situation!
will be picking up Deluge this month after getting back into hardware sequencing with Pyramid/Hapax. is there any value to the way Squarp handles MIDI routing of tracks, since my understanding is even Deluge has a maximum of 16 MIDI tracks available -- just default each track to the corresponding MIDI channel: Track 1 = MIDI Ch 1 and so on through 16, but you can always dial in a different channel per track if needed? i get that it probably makes more sense with their UI layouts because they are built around a 16-track pad layout generally and Deluge seems to be "infinite tracks" on the grid that we scroll up/down.
but perhaps there could be a method of hierarchical assignment when designating a given row as a MIDI track to create clips? so that the first time you select any event to be a MIDI track, it defaults to MIDI Ch 1 and then each subsequent creation of a new MIDI track event ratchets up to the next channel until you hit Ch. 16? all changeable after first created if you needed to tweak any channel routings later? the way i have my setup currently, i know exactly what MIDI channel corresponds to which voices/tracks across my multiple devices that are being sequenced and those channel assignments are never going to change. so will probably be most efficient in building projects in Deluge if I can just quickly create MIDI tracks on the grid sequentially (say the first 16 rows from top to bottom correspond to MIDI 1-16) and those will always route to the order i've assigned my devices' MIDI channels. and then i'll have as many rows below those for any internal Deluge synth/samples i might want to layer on top of my 16 MIDI tracks.
but this is all just spitballing based on the tutorial videos and walkthroughs i've been watching to understand the workflow before i take the actual plunge.
I would say just create yourself a default template. Then just load that template before you begin any song. Everything will be setup as you want it. Just be sure to save as a new song before continuing.
Yes, it would be a nice feature, but it would have to be one that you are able to turn off also, because there are some situations where you might not want this to happen, as in when using live looping, etc. Plus, this is nice if you've got a single controller, but what if you have multiple on different channels? How would it know which one to "automatically" respond to? Just like in a DAW, you need to set things up first before you can start recording. I have to reserve comment on when users want things "just to work like everything else" without realizing the repercussions and what else it might affect. The Deluge is a hardware tool that needs to be configured just like any other program or device. It's not made for just one application, which is part of what makes it so amazing. I have to commend the authors on choosing what it can and can't do, because I believe they have a larger picture of what the tool can be used for and the best way to go about that without focusing exclusively on any one application. Many times I've thought "Why did they do that?". But as I got deeper into understanding the Deluge, I began to understand the thinking and logic behind it. There is a learning curve, and some things seem more complex than necessary. But once you learn the tool it can be quite amazing and satisfying. When you start reaching for adjustments without having to look thinks up to figure out how to do it, it becomes an instrument in itself.
Just my 2 cents.
I'm not sure I understand your point. I'm not asking for an always on feature. I'm asking for an optional configuration of "this is the master MIDI channel - anytime I put a clip in record mode, use notes from this channel as input to the actively recording track". That's it that's all. I noted a few alternative ways this could be accomplished, that would be agreeable too, but that wasn't saying I wanted this to affect the other use cases.
Saying "other instruments have a good and useful pattern X, it would be nice to see that pattern here" is reasonable. Your answer feels, to me, dismissive of a very valid and popular-because-its-actually-useful use case. I see no way that adding this (literally basic feature of any MIDI sequencer) to the Deluge as a configurable option would harm the workflow of anyone else. I also don't see how not having it is in any way a value for the Deluge.
This doesn't solve the use case I'm talking about because it won't follow clips you record with the same instrument later - you'll be "playing" the previously assigned / auto-learned clip anyway, until you manually un-assign it. To me there's no utility here - I could, as was pointed out upthread, do this already with a template song, but as I pointed out in the last sentence of the OP itself, that doesn't solve the problem.
I have to wonder when an obvious feature is not included that the programmer(s) must have thought of this, so why was it left out? I tend to believe there is something in the bigger picture that I as an end user do not understand or know about. With all the fantastic features that are there, surely they did think this through. Maybe at some point Rowan or someone could be a little more transparent about why certain obvious features are not implemented. I have always wondered why a simple sustain pedal is not supported in the built-in synthesizer. But I'm not assuming that it was overlooked. I'm sure there is a good reason. Maybe the unit doesn't really have the power, maybe it's a polyphony issue, or something else I'm totally unaware of. Anyway, who knows what goes on the dark recesses of a programmers mind? (appropriate emoji icon goes here)
Well, I work in that field. And I can confirm that sometimes things get left out because the programmer didn't have that use case in mind or didn't prioritize it and other stuff came first. And that it takes customer feedback sometimes to surface simple things. We might disagree, as I don't share your view that there's some mysterious master plan for why this feature isn't there, and I think raising it to view is important, so I will.
Yes, well, unfortunately that goes under the category of "feature request", which as I understand it right now is strictly forbidden! They kind of got overwhelmed a few years ago with requests.
Is it still prohibited?
I think y’all are over-thinking it. An option that overrides existing mapping to send all incoming midi to the currently selected clip with an option to specify a channel filter gets the job done. It’s how nearly every other piece of multitimbral gear has worked forever.
Fwiw, I don’t find this as much of an inconvenience as I do the need to learn each drum sound in a kit individually rather than learn the kit track and have the sounds chromatically mapped automatically.
@LegsMechanical Yeah as I said, may ways to sort it. I'm fine with that too!
Regarding the drum sound learning, wow that's definitely more annoying! O.o
It definitely seems to be a feature request now that we've determined there's no way to do it!
I'm still new though, hence asking the question here first (plus as you point out, there's not really any place to ask for features that's clearly official).
Maybe they'll be willing to consider a few of these hopefully-fairly-straightforward feature requests as a higher priority over some next mega-feature nobody's really asking for yet (not that they are doing that, but I see far too many manufacturers doing similar things: ignoring a stack of fairly straightforward workflow requests and dumping some huge feature that wasn't why people bought the machine in the first place, just to hopefully make it more appealing to some newly identified niche of the market). I get why; we don't need to discuss that too. I just hope that doesn't happen here.
They’ve got feature requests coming out of their ears, including this one. The reason they shut down the request thread is because the same things we’re being repeated again and again. The good news is they’re still coming fast and furious with the firmware updates so there’s always something to look forward to.
finally getting into my new Deluge and hopefully this is one feature that can now be sorted out via Open Source (coming from Squarp boxes, Hapax and Pyramid, which just auto route MIDI depending which track/channel you select the learn/unlearn workflow is . . . clunky)
also, is there any special process for saving as a template? or is it just creating a Templates subfolder and saving the song in there as "Blank Template" when I have all the MIDI kit routings worked out the way i would like them per channel going forward? thanks!
It sounds like your looking for 'MIDI Follow Mode' that is available in the community firmware.
https://github.com/SynthstromAudible/DelugeFirmware/blob/community/docs/features/midi_follow_mode.md