Deluge as a USB MIDI host (general question) & connecting a Novation Circuit (specific question)
phillipadsmith
United StatesBeta Tester Posts: 89
Inspired by a two recent Facebook group posts, I found myself seeking some further clarity on how the Deluge works as a USB MIDI host.
I re-read the manual and it seems that the Deluge should be able to support several devices via a USB hub, as long as those devices are powered appropriately. And my assumption was that the Deluge would act as a USB MIDI "host" in this case, thus not requiring a computer to facilitate the MIDI over USB functionality.
However, this thread in particular left me confused as to what a device like the Mio or Retrokit might be doing that the Deluge is not. Can anyone point me in the right direction here to understand a bit more clearly?
In my specific situation, I have two controllers (one keyboard, one with knobs) and one external synth plugged into a powered USB hub. This works as I'd expect: I can use the learn button on the Deluge to map the keyboard and knobs, and I can set up MIDI clips that control the external synth (and I can use the keyboard to play the external synth via a MIDI clip on the Deluge that is mapped to the keyboard).
However, I'm experiencing two strange behaviors that I'm not able to figure out:
1) When I power on the Deluge (it's powered via the DC connection), it doesn't report "HUB" or "MIDI." I believe it might have once during the initial set-up, but if I power it on now with the hub plugged in -- nothing. All connections still work, but I just don't get any message that it's connected (or disconnected). So, I'm curious about what's happening here and under what circumstances I should or should not get the "HUB" and "MIDI" (and "FULL") messages.
2) When I plug a Novation Circuit into the USB hub (to use its velocity sensitive pads), it doesn't connect to the Deluge at all. If I plug it in directly to the Deluge via USB, it works fine (obviously, fine over 5-pin MIDI also). And if I plug it into a hub, then into my computer, it also works fine in that context. My understanding is that the Circuit should be able to send and receive MIDI over USB, and that it should work over a USB hub -- and it appears to do so, but just not with the Deluge. However, I see that Ruls Monitus appears to have a Circuit and Deluge connected in this post, perhaps using an iPad as the USB MIDI host?
I know that this is not a Novation Circuit forum! But given that it seems to have been a gateway to the Deluge for several folks, I'm hoping someone might have some thoughts here?
Last but not least, is scenario #2 above, connecting the Circuit to the Deluge over USB, something that a dedicated USB MIDI host like the Mio or Retrokit might solve for? If so, why is that?
Many thanks in advance,
Phillip.
Best Answers
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Icoustik
NorwayPosts: 1,017
@phillipadsmith said:
Inspired by a two recent Facebook group posts, I found myself seeking some further clarity on how the Deluge works as a USB MIDI host.I re-read the manual and it seems that the Deluge should be able to support several devices via a USB hub, as long as those devices are powered appropriately. And my assumption was that the Deluge would act as a USB MIDI "host" in this case, thus not requiring a computer to facilitate the MIDI over USB functionality.
However, this thread in particular left me confused as to what a device like the Mio or Retrokit might be doing that the Deluge is not. Can anyone point me in the right direction here to understand a bit more clearly?
In my specific situation, I have two controllers (one keyboard, one with knobs) and one external synth plugged into a powered USB hub. This works as I'd expect: I can use the learn button on the Deluge to map the keyboard and knobs, and I can set up MIDI clips that control the external synth (and I can use the keyboard to play the external synth via a MIDI clip on the Deluge that is mapped to the keyboard).
However, I'm experiencing two strange behaviors that I'm not able to figure out:
1) When I power on the Deluge (it's powered via the DC connection), it doesn't report "HUB" or "MIDI." I believe it might have once during the initial set-up, but if I power it on now with the hub plugged in -- nothing. All connections still work, but I just don't get any message that it's connected (or disconnected). So, I'm curious about what's happening here and under what circumstances I should or should not get the "HUB" and "MIDI" (and "FULL") messages.
2) When I plug a Novation Circuit into the USB hub (to use its velocity sensitive pads), it doesn't connect to the Deluge at all. If I plug it in directly to the Deluge via USB, it works fine (obviously, fine over 5-pin MIDI also). And if I plug it into a hub, then into my computer, it also works fine in that context. My understanding is that the Circuit should be able to send and receive MIDI over USB, and that it should work over a USB hub -- and it appears to do so, but just not with the Deluge. However, I see that Ruls Monitus appears to have a Circuit and Deluge connected in this post, perhaps using an iPad as the USB MIDI host?
I know that this is not a Novation Circuit forum! But given that it seems to have been a gateway to the Deluge for several folks, I'm hoping someone might have some thoughts here?
Last but not least, is scenario #2 above, connecting the Circuit to the Deluge over USB, something that a dedicated USB MIDI host like the Mio or Retrokit might solve for? If so, why is that?
Many thanks in advance,
Phillip.Thanks for reaching out
1) Does the Delly say HUB or MIDI when you plug in and out one of the controllers while the hub is connected to the D and everything is on?
2) It seems the Circuit presents itself as a multi-hub in some way, and Delly can only handle 'basic' hubs with 4 USB connections or less. Hubs with more than 4 connections basically present themselves as e.g. 4+3 connections, i.e. 'multi hub'.
So, to answer the last question as well - yes, if they deal with such hubs/ devices that the Deluge does not~ Distinguished Delugate ᕕ( ◎_◎)ᕗ
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Icoustik
NorwayPosts: 1,017
Always happy to help.
@phillipadsmith said:
Given that, are there some simple, powered USB hubs that are tested with the Deluge already? If so, I'd be keen to know which one to pick up.I'd suggest any decent simple 4-port hub with a power supply, really. Preferably USB 2.0.
Given the results of the test above, I'm hard pressed to see what one of these (rather expensive!) devices would do that a four-port, powered, USB hub would not do? Anything I'm not thinking about here?
Personally, I mostly don't use the Deluge as host, because I use an ipad+hub-->Deluge and route connections via an app called Midiflow. This way, I'm able to use all ports of a powered 10-port hub (its actually a 7 with an extra, passive 4-port), and also can filter, remap etc. the midi data in very flexible ways as well. This is basically the stuff you can do with the Mio or Retrokits stuff too
It depends on your needs. If you wanna keep it simple and streamlined, go with Delly-hosting. And if you want some deeper control, flexibility and customizabilty, explore the more advanced hosting possibilities.
I have very high praises for Midiflow with its multitude of options, and being able to use up to 9 USB-midi devices (spread out in tactical locations throughout the studio, in my case).Manipulating the midi data can be very useful. For example, I make buttons on my devices that are otherwise useless useful by remapping them to midi messages that the Delly can get down with, etc.
~ Distinguished Delugate ᕕ( ◎_◎)ᕗ
Answers
Actually, your answer prompted me to try simply ensuring the Circuit was plugged into one of the first four USB slots on that USB hub, and -- bingo! -- it worked (sends and receives).
So, it seems that with this particular USB hub, only the first three connections make their way to the Deluge and the rest are ignored -- problem solved.
Given that, are there some simple, powered USB hubs that are tested with the Deluge already? If so, I'd be keen to know which one to pick up.
Given the results of the test above, I'm hard pressed to see what one of these (rather expensive!) devices would do that a four-port, powered, USB hub would not do? Anything I'm not thinking about here?
Alas, it doesn't say hub, but perhaps that's because it's a 10 port hub (which is probably several smaller hubs internally). But this time, using one of the first three connections, it did say "MIDI" when I turned on/off the keyboard, etc. So, again, I believe it's simply that I was plugged into the wrong ports on the hub.
Thanks, as always, @Icoustik!
Can you say more about how you connect the iPad, hub, and Deluge? I'm having a hard time envisioning it. Does the Deluge just plug into a standard port on the hub (like the other controllers and gear), while the hub's output goes into the camera connection kit for iOS? And then in the Midiflow app you simply route various things to the Deluge?
This is an interesting idea. Given what I just paid for a Faderfox controller, I could have easily picked up a new iPad 🤣🤦♂️.
That said, my ambition was to keep this part of the room "screen free" as much as possible. I believe, for the moment, that a simple four-port hub might be the best route for me for now.
Thanks again, appreciated!
Yes! What you said, regarding the connections
I picked up an old secondhand ipad mini 2 for a sweet price, and the screen is off while the Midiflow action happens under the hood!
I agree, I'd rather not stare at screens either if I can avoid it
~ Distinguished Delugate ᕕ( ◎_◎)ᕗ
Quick update to say that I'm all sorted: Picked up this inexpensive four-port USB hub (with one extra port that is just for power, which is providing power to the Deluge).
Everything works as expected now. Everything talks to everything else via the Deluge. No screens & nothing fancy needed. Gotta' love simplicity!
Sweet (▰ ͜ʖ▰)
~ Distinguished Delugate ᕕ( ◎_◎)ᕗ