Polymetric Looping Question
safrosch
Chicago, Illinois USPosts: 6
Hi all!
I am not a current Deluge owner, but I am on the hunt for a looping system that fits my needs. Specifically, I am trying to find a looper that has polymetric capabilities while still being clock/tempo synced. I have been through many different loopers, most recently, the Boss RC-505Mkii, which greatly disappointed me with its buggy midi clock syncing capabilities, and inability to have loops of different lengths (3/4 vs. 4/4, 7/4 vs. 6/4, etc.).
As I understand it, the Deluge does support looping of tracks of different lengths, assuming the lengths are set in advance. My question is, is there a capability for the Deluge to live loops tracks of different lengths, without setting the clip length first. In videos I have seen, the end of the loop will be quantized to 4/4 time, so when you hit the launch button to end the loop, it will automatically sync to the 4/4 time. Is there a way to adjust the quantization of the track length so that, for instance, the loop will sync to the nearest quarter note (clock trigger), rather than the bar. So for instance, if I started to record a live-loop, and I hit the launch button to close to loop right before beat 3, it would create a 3 beat loop (12 step).
If this is not the case, is there a way to set audio clip lengths ahead of time before looping? So for instance if I wanted a 15/16 bar, could I set the audio clip to be that length before live-looping? As I understand it from the manual, there is no way to lock an audio clip length ahead of time, unless there is already audio recorded into that track. Empty audio tracks can't be configured to clip length ahead of time.
I appreciate any and all help!
Sam
Comments
This method is quantized to the length of the above track. It is not always 4/4 time.
Yes, you can set any length you want for audio clips before recording. For example, Create an audio track and set it to 15/16 bar; press Rec + the Audition pad on the next row of that track, and it will start loop recording at 15/16 bar length
So if, for instance, the above track was set to be 17 beats long (4.1.0 in your notation I believe), would the below loop track quantize to that length?
Yes, it will.
My question is, is there a capability for the Deluge to live loops tracks of different lengths, without setting the clip length first. .. So for instance, if I started to record a live-loop, and I hit the launch button to close to loop right before beat 3, it would create a 3 beat loop (12 step).
Yes you can do this! It will quantize to whatever the zoom resolution is.
For example, if zoom is set to 16th, you see one bar at a time. During the 3rd bar of recording, you can hit record to stop at the end of that bar and you will have a 3-bar loop. If the resolution is finer, you can get funkier with it.
So I got my hands on a Deluge to try this out. To clarify, only the overdubs will synchronize to the original audio loop length. For instance, if there is only one track, let's say a synth track, and that track was set to 7 beats. If I create an audio loop below it, it will still quantize to 8 beats, unless I manually change the audio clip length.
As well, the looping will still only quantize to 4/4. I tried looping with the grid at a 32nd note resolution, or 2 beat per 16 pads. Based on your above post, I could theoretically hit the launch pad to end the loop during the 5th page, and the loop would end up being 10 beats total. I tried this, and regardless of the resolution, the loop will still quantize to 4 clock pulses. I would LOVE if this was the case that it quantized to the current resolution, then you could for instance have a 64th note resolution and quantize the end point of each loop to be a quarter note and easily live loop in poly-meter. Unfortunately that is not the case, unless I drastically messed something up. If you know of any other work arounds, please let me know!!
Interestingly enough, I found as well that when launching clips, they will always synchronize their start points with the highest track up. So if there is a track in 6/4 at the top, and the second track is in 7/4, and a 4/4 track is muted on the third track, when you launch the 3rd track, it will line up with the 6/4 track, indifferent to the 7/4. Again, it would be very nice if you could quantize the range at which tracks will launch as well as end looping.
Finally, I noticed that when audio looping with abnormal clips (non 4/4), if nothing else is recorded yet, and you set the clip length to something that isn't 4/4 (where the deluge has to detect the tempo), it will force your clip back to 4/4 regardless of how you set the clip length. Although, if you have the metronome going, it will match your designed clip length, that just means you can't set the tempo with your loop.
Unfortunately, it's not possible to record a 3-beat loop without pre-setting the length.
Sorry for the misinformation!
You can record an arbitrary amount of beats into a loop, but the looper will stop when it reaches the end of the screen. This means you must zoom so the entire screen fits a single beat.
However, in my experience, it is not a problem to predetermine your base measure length (or lengths if youre doing compound meter) with your parent clip before looping.
Alternatively, if the parent clip is one beat long, you can record any number multiple of this parent clip regardless of zoom level.
I'm pretty sure you are actually correct. I just double checked, and the Deluge functions just as you orignally said.
You are correct in assessing that loop start will sync with the top most clip. You can create multiple empty clips at the top of your project to change the clip launch quantization on the fly.
The deluge will always be in 4/4 at the base level. The metronome will also always be in 4/4. If you record an initial loop and have the deluge determine bpm, it will cram your arbitrary amount of beats into a 4/4 measure. Sometimes this is desireable, but you have to start thinking about the clip in a more "euclidian" way, instead of lining your beats up with the grid, which my brain doesnt do so well.
I do a some odd time looping with a guitar into the deluge, and it works out better than any other looping hardware i've yet used. I'd check out the looping section in the manual, it's pretty deep what you can do once you figure out the multiple recording/looping/layering modes.
Can you elaborate a little bit more or send a video with this functionality? I just tried again setting the resolution to 64th notes (one beat per page), and it is still quantizing the end of the loop to 4/4 time, not the screen length.
As well, this only works when the parent audio loop is one beat long. So for instance, if I created an audio track and made it one beat, every subsequent layer would be a multiple of one beat. This does not work though if the upper most track is one beat (since these tracks are not linked via the looping feature). Only the launch function will quantize to the upper most track, the end loop function still only quantizes to 4/4 unless it is a layer of an already non 4/4 time signature, or the track length is set in advance.
@safrosch
Most of the functionality youre looking for comes through overdubs. Theres two overdub methods: Loop (single overdub) and Layer (continuous overdub). Dont worry about layer for now.
In order to get the behavior i described, where the looper will record in multiples of the screen span at current zoom, you have to trigger an overdub while the parent track is not playing. That is, with no clips active, turn on playback and hold the record button, then tap the clip row below the parent clip in order to record an overbub. If you are zoomed in so the resolution of the screen is one beat (64th notes), you can hit the mute button of the recording track in between the 3rd and 4th beats to record a 3 beat loop, for instance.
Theres some good tutorials on youtube about the deluge looper. A lot of functionality of the looper changes based on current state of playback for both the clip and the project, arming of the clip, and which overdub method is selected.
Edit: i dont really know any tutorials that explain the subtleties of this odd time stuff, but they'll help you understand the modes so you can kinda discover for yourself.
No, please double check my answer and the original question.
The original question was whether it is possible to record 3 BEAT long on the fly, to which he replied yes, if it is 3 BARs long.
I replied that it is not possible to record 3 beat long. (It is possible if the first/above track is set 1 beat long as already mentioned here)
I don't think i have misunderstood you. I have been recording loops of arbitrary number of 8th notes (smallest unit available with this method) all day using the process that both myself and @Affectionate_Bee_781 have outlined. Attempt the process described in my previous comment.
I will make a quick demonstration video and post here soon.
@safrosch here ya go! This isnt intended to be very informative, but i just wanted to demonstrate that it can be done.
I included the synth and kit tracks to show that you can have other clips playing, and their length has no bearing on the process.
Thanks so much! I actually got it figured out last night from one of your earlier replies, but this further helps my understanding. I think the confusion was that I was trying to create non 4/4 loops on the initial audio track, not the overdubs. Definitely strange how the resolution determines the record length quantization only on the overdubs, but I'm sure there is a logical explanation beyond my understanding. This method makes it super easy to develop a myriad of abnormal loops, and I am having an absolute ball with it!
Thank you for walking me through the process and helping me out!
Yeah, it's especially confusing because it has similar workflow to good old Boss looping, but its quirks arent super intuitive. I dont quite understand why this technique does not work for an empty clip, but does for an overdub. This is my train of thought, though:
I suppose the empty initial clip just has to record for at least it's preset duration. when you do an overdub while the parent is playing, the recording clip will be based on the parent (loops in multiples of parent). But when the parent is not playing, you are saying you want to record a new base clip. I guess the new base you start recording in this case is created with no preset length, so loop stop is determined by screen end rather than bar length.
By manipulating these two modes, you can pretty quickly make loops in a lot of different meters once you establish the base clip for each meter. Again, you can always just do that by adjusting the length of the clips to begin with, which is often ideal.
Im not sure what audio you are looping, but i control all of this with a midi footpedal, and it works flawlessly. You have to touch the deluge sometimes, but only with one hand (shift + audition pads). Otherwise it can pretty much all be done hands free.
Happy looping!