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Zero-maintenance loop recording

0
TOTALTOTAL Posts: 111
edited October 2022 in Deluge Help

Hi
I have done some resampling tests with my deluge.
Essentially, what I am after is accurately cut loops.

Here is what I did.
1. Prepared a song.
2. Record+play in song mode to get recording to start precisely.
3. pressed record to let it stop recording in align with the grid.
4. created a new kit
5. loaded the sample into kit's pad.
6. set mode to loop
7. set up a midi loop with a single noted played throughout. This combined with loop makes the loop keep rolling without restarting with midi.

It turns out that the loop progressively is getting out of sync.

How to ensure the loop starts and ends totally in sync so that it's length is purely n*bar?

Thanks

Post edited by TOTAL on

Comments

  • 0
    djAziddjAzid AmsterdamPosts: 199

    Maybe set the sample to 'once' instead of 'loop'. If the sample still doesn't loop right, trim it a bit in waveform view.

  • 0
    Too_MereToo_Mere Chicago, IL, USABeta Tester, Mentor Posts: 993

    If you have margins on in settings it leaves a little extra for audio clips to prevent clicks when looping. Try turning that off

  • 1
    TOTALTOTAL Posts: 111
    edited October 2022

    Cool, thanks. A couple of discoveries.

    For one bar, loop end at 0.999 does the trick :) only you need to make it the last time unit showing as 0.999 at the very highest zoom, so there is a bit of winding.
    Loop length and snap to grid would be lovely. Select knob might snap to 32th or any other minimum value set by user and the button matrix might stay as it is.

    Margins - actually, it turns out that the first transient is stronger with the margin on. Maybe some error of mine.

    Loops of even lengths, i.e. snap to grid resample on and off would still be useful for producing drum loops ready to play 'out of the box' without the end of sample calculus..

    Please correct me if I am wrong but for now, it looks like the way to secure sample start alignment to grid is to record+play from pause, which is sufficient except for cases where you want reverb to be evenly spread throughout the loop.

    Wrapped sample list
    Also, once browsing resampled/recorded, or any other folder, it would be great to have an option to turn one click left to access the most recently recorded samples. Browsing starts chronologically, I presume that when you have amassed 1500 samples, that must take many turns to reach the most recent one ;)

    Post edited by TOTAL on
  • 0
    IcoustikIcoustik NorwayModerator, Beta Tester, Mentor Posts: 1,017

    @TOTAL said:
    Cool, thanks. A couple of discoveries.

    For one bar, loop end at 0.999 does the trick :) only you need to make it the last time unit showing as 0.999 at the very highest zoom, so there is a bit of winding.
    Loop length and snap to grid would be lovely. Select knob might snap to 32th or any other minimum value set by user and the button matrix might stay as it is.

    Margins - actually, it turns out that the first transient is stronger with the margin on. Maybe some error of mine.

    Loops of even lengths, i.e. snap to grid resample on and off would still be useful for producing drum loops ready to play 'out of the box' without the end of sample calculus..

    Please correct me if I am wrong but for now, it looks like the way to secure sample start alignment to grid is to record+play from pause, which is sufficient except for cases where you want reverb to be evenly spread throughout the loop.

    Wrapped sample list
    Also, once browsing resampled/recorded, or any other folder, it would be great to have an option to turn one click left to access the most recently recorded samples. Browsing starts chronologically, I presume that when you have amassed 1500 samples, that must take many turns to reach the most recent one ;)

    Try setting the sample to STRETCH instead of LOOP?

    Also, to jump to last recorded thing, use audition pad + Load button to enter browser, instead of shift + Browse shortcut.

    ~ Distinguished Delugate ᕕ( ◎_◎)ᕗ

  • 1
    TOTALTOTAL Posts: 111

    Great, thanks.
    Pad+Load really cool.

  • 0
    IcoustikIcoustik NorwayModerator, Beta Tester, Mentor Posts: 1,017

    @TOTAL said:
    Great, thanks.
    Pad+Load really cool.

    :) :)

    ~ Distinguished Delugate ᕕ( ◎_◎)ᕗ

  • 0
    TOTALTOTAL Posts: 111

    Looks like there is what I was looking for :)

    Quantize loop record end by pressing record+play ahead of time.

    Quantize loop record start if already playing (special case of wanting a developed reverb/delay/tail from the beginning of the loop), to quote community manual, "If Playing already, Hold Rec + Play to Quantise Rec to start of loop."
    This does not seem to work because when playback is on, pressing record and play stops playback. Pls help.

  • 0
    rezareza los angelesModerator, Beta Tester Posts: 603

    @TOTAL said:
    Quantize loop record start if already playing (special case of wanting a developed reverb/delay/tail from the beginning of the loop), to quote community manual, "If Playing already, Hold Rec + Play to Quantise Rec to start of loop."
    This does not seem to work because when playback is on, pressing record and play stops playback. Pls help.

    this doesn't work for me, i have a feeling that "If Playing already, Hold Rec + Play to Quantise Rec to start of loop." never was a feature, but maybe it was possible in earlier firmware?

  • 0
    TOTALTOTAL Posts: 111
    edited November 2022

    Okay, good to know. That is an important feature but I have found a workaround yet. So the thing matters as long as you want the beginning of sample to resound the end of the sample. Essentially, always when you want continuous loop, or there will be a cut which may be good in a fraction of contexts. The loop may not be cut to align with quantization later on because there is no quick way to either enter the length or to set it precisely - the latter unless the loop is already even, and it won't be if it got started 'by hand'.

    The good news is that if the loop length is quantised, the waveform menu markers get very accurate position values, very well aligned with the button matrix itself, so you simply have to both start and end recording in a quantised way and simply record a sample of minimum two 'cycles'.

    Here is how to do it:
    0. start playback, unmute all the parts you want in the loop.
    1. Stop playback.
    2. Press Record and play to start playback and resampling at the same time.
    3. Record two lengths of the loop you want. When you near the second length, press record + play again. The loop length will be quantised ^^
    4. All you need to and can do is set loop start at 50% of the sample length, and since the loop is even, this will be at column 9 of the note matrix.
    5. I think you can do it as well with loop markers - not gone that far yet.

    Done. Any smaller parts of the sample (quantized at 50%) are also easy to trim now.

    Post edited by TOTAL on
  • 0
    TOTALTOTAL Posts: 111
    edited November 2022

    The research continues.

    It turns out that pressing record + play during resampling stops recording not at bar end but at the longest playing phrase end. This is useful in itself but outside contexts when this is what you are after you would want loops to end in sync to imminent bar end. If loop length is out of sync, any drum content will get off in no time if put into an audio clip.
    As a workaround, record this way once or twice the length of the longest phrase and modify sample start and end.

    Also, once a clip is loaded, the length cannot be changed, so if you change start/end of the sample, stretching results. Any way to us just the first half of the audio sample without doubling its speed? One that comes to mind is to record it this way (because sample does not get normalised) and reimport into a kit. You have a choice whether to stretch.

    Ideas, please share.

    Post edited by TOTAL on
  • 0
    Too_MereToo_Mere Chicago, IL, USABeta Tester, Mentor Posts: 993

    @TOTAL said:
    The research continues.

    It turns out that pressing record + play during resampling stops recording not at bar end but at the longest playing phrase end. This is useful in itself but outside contexts when this is what you are after you would want loops to end in sync to imminent bar end. If loop length is out of sync, any drum content will get off in no time if put into an audio clip.
    As a workaround, record this way once or twice the length of the longest phrase and modify sample start and end.

    Also, once a clip is loaded, the length cannot be changed, so if you change start/end of the sample, stretching results. Any way to us just the first half of the audio sample without doubling its speed? One that comes to mind is to record it this way (because sample does not get normalised) and reimport into a kit. You have a choice whether to stretch.

    Ideas, please share.

    Trim that longest clip, or a duplicate of it, to the length you want to resample.

  • 0
    AlterAlter TokyoPosts: 100

    If the length of the loop is determined in advance, resampling to an audio track is useful.

  • 0
    TOTALTOTAL Posts: 111

    @Alter said:

    If the length of the loop is determined in advance, resampling to an audio track is useful.

    Can you provide more details? What are the advantages / applications?

    @Too_Mere said:

    Trim that longest clip, or a duplicate of it, to the length you want to resample.

    OK, so there are two ways of affecting the audio clip length and I chose the wrong one.
    Here they are
    1. shift + turn scroll vertical to change duration and time stretch/shrink
    2. change position of the loop end (manual page 179). This is what I thought was missing, thanks. The sample length must be aligned with tempo upon recording, unless you are happy to tweak-and-err or do not mind rhythm drifting.

    Also, a useful tip with this clip duplicating for such manipulations. Obvious, but I had yet to find out. So such a copy represents a different phrase on the same track.

    So far so good.

    So loop manipulation seems tackled; you can manipulate loop start and end on the fly, during playback.
    Still wondering if there is a way to record a loop DJ way, i.e. on the fly, capture the second half of the third bar and have solo it as you reorganise parts to 'drop' upon unsoloing. I guess that would need to be done at the mixer level?

  • 0
    AlterAlter TokyoPosts: 100
    edited November 2022

    I found a way to resample a specific region:

    1. Create an audio track in the song mode and set the audio source to Deluge output pre/post-fx.
    2. Set the length of the audio track to 1 bar. Back to the song mode.
    3. Mute the audio track.
    4. Play the song, and turn on the Record button.
    5. Press the Mute/Launch pad to start recording. It will start in the next measure.
    6. Press the Mute/Launch pad again to stop.
    Post edited by Alter on
  • 0
    TOTALTOTAL Posts: 111

    Great to hear. I will take a look.

    Meantime, have been exploring alternatives, namely stutter. You can set it to specific length and and it can be either all tracks or a single one, so no grouping unless you group samples within a kit.

    any length, lengths synced I guess, any moment in bar free to trigger, rather tricky to set precisely and firmly with gold knob.

    Ideally, a launchpad or some discreet/button equivalent controller could be used to toggle and set. Anyone tried? Combine it with filters and delay... This would be a killer.
    Not possible with D's knobs for one or both of the reasons, to be explored
    1. Stutter comes last (insufferable waste! The best things are started - not concluded - by stutter)
    2. D's controllers are not as independent as logic would allow (another example you can not trigger, unmute clips, change menus, play sounds etc. during stutter working)
    3. nor are the mechanisms. If they were, an external controller could do magic.

    Potentially, a controller can do the following

    • hands free do everything while loop stutters
    • filter, delay stuttered sound and beyond - yummy

    Not sure when I will have the time but will be back with any worthwhile findings.

  • 0
    TOTALTOTAL Posts: 111
    edited November 2022

    @Alter said:
    I found a way to resample a specific region:

    Precisely. Many thanks, this is what I have been looking for.in terms of creating tempo aligned loops.

    Notes

    • Create the audio track by pressing one of the 16 pads of a free row AND pressing select knob. You thus create an audio - track without getting into the audio clip "placeholder".
    • Input is inherited from previous instance (!!! cool !!!)
    • no predefined loop length
    • you can override synced off by pressing shift and mute rather than just mute.
    • be ready to shift and mute the clip as it starts playing because it doubles what you have been recording. I wonder if there is a workaround - clip either not starting or starting muted. My first thought was recording soloed tracks but does not appear to be that way.
    • If you think you may want to manipulate loop start, too, use resample and import into Synth / Kit.
    • the 'image of the sample' in song view, I think burgundy red points to 0dB clips :D that would be a very smart idea.
    • retake, you can get into the clip and erase it with L/R press + back/undo or you can delete track: press track + delete (shift not needed) and create again with press track + press select.

    All for now. I have yet to test the latency on percussive material but based on the flangey effect when loop starts playing, feels very well aligned.

    This is a great discovery. How did you find out? Probably just Read The FM? :)

    Update
    Latency is phenomenal (read imperceiptible) ^^^

    In case you want to reuse the audio in Synth or Kit, where is it stored? not in resample or record folder.

    Post edited by TOTAL on
  • 0
    AlterAlter TokyoPosts: 100
    edited November 2022

    @TOTAL said:
    In case you want to reuse the audio in Synth or Kit, where is it stored? not in resample or record folder.

    Once the song is saved, the sample will appear in the CLIPS folder.

    Post edited by Alter on
  • 0
    TOTALTOTAL Posts: 111

    OK, so it is good to know you have to save the song even if a dummy copy if something in the additions goes wrong if the recorded clips are to be preserved.

  • 0
    TOTALTOTAL Posts: 111

    @Alter, all

    resampling to an audio track is useful.

    What are the advantages of audio track vs a sample in the Kit?

    As far as Kit advantages:
    control of sample start and end
    per-step automation.

  • 0
    rezareza los angelesModerator, Beta Tester Posts: 603

    @TOTAL audio clip is best when you want a single sample to loop properly regardless of its BPM relative to its song. you can achieve something similar with a kit clip but it takes more set up and won't be as seamless.

    the benefit with a kit clip is that each row has access to pretty much all the synthesis patching parameters, along with sequencing per step like you mentioned.

    generally i use audio clips for hi hat or drum loops or a sample loop of something i've recorded. just keeps it simple and seeing the lights reflect the waveform in song view is useful too

  • 0
    TOTALTOTAL Posts: 111

    Simplicity and specific application, fair enough. Thanks

  • 0
    TOTALTOTAL Posts: 111
    edited December 2022

    As a follow up, there is a special case in which I ended up with lots of steps. I wonder if you can think of a workaround.

    Scenario
    song mode.
    a cpu heavy drum clip of 4 bars.
    some synths
    a track for a long improvisation, 64 bars recorded, to be trimmed and edited later. You realise the cpu is breaking drum sounds occasionally so you choose to bounce the loop into audio

    create and mute audio track, arm to output, mute all tracks except drum
    playback on, press record
    as nearing drum phrase restart, press audio track's audition button. Recording will start at the beginning of the new cycle.

    The problem is the cycle will start in 60 bars, and if you are patient to wait, the soonest the recording ends will be another 64 bars - whether the longest track is playing or not.
    If you hasten either the rec on or off, you end up with an uneven loop.

    how to record a 4 bar loop in such a case?

    Process
    The solution I have used provisionally has been to save a copy of the project, delete all long tracks, or any tracks other than the drums, record the loop, save the project (essential for the wav to be retained), reopen the project proper, import the wav into an audio track.
    Any way to streamline this? I can see how the way this function works supports creating stems of whole tracks, so that any variety throughout is recorded in sync with the song, so the function as it is is useful.
    (As I think of it, there might be other applications because for this purpose recording should start with playback.)

    System
    I think it would be ideal to make shift + audition stop recording earlier but in sync. Should you want an uneven sample with even start, you could shift sample end later.

    Post edited by TOTAL on
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