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Sustain pedal. How to make it work?
broughtonfilm
New YorkBeta Tester Posts: 70
I've searched the forum but can't find the answer: how do I make Deluge work with my MIDI keyboards' sustain pedal? I mean a very basic function of sustaining note as in a piano. The keyboard's sustain pedal works with Logic fine but no luck with Deluge. Thanks!
Comments
Yes it does when controlling an external synth, no unfortunately it doesn't work with the internal synth engine.
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Would have to learn midi CC to the Release parameter. Not ideal, but it works
~ Distinguished Delugate ᕕ( ◎_◎)ᕗ
Thank you. Could you explain how I would go about setting it up? Sorry, a newbie here.
Your sustain pedal is connected to your MIDI keyboard, right? So it should be sending a CC message by default though the keyboard, CC64 to be precise. With the keyboard connected to the Delly, what you need to do is MIDI 'learn' this to the Release parameter of the instrument you want to control.
Enter the Env1 Release parameter so its value shows on screen, then hold the Learn button, and press the sustain pedal. It should say LEARn on screen.
Now the pedal controls this parameter, which will work similar to a normal sustain pedal.
~ Distinguished Delugate ᕕ( ◎_◎)ᕗ
Thank you. I must be doing something wrong because it does not work. The CC value from the pedal does make it to the Deluge correctly, I do get the "Learn" message when performing the steps you described above but after I do this the pedal does not have the sustaining effect, there's no effect at all. I tried it with multiple synths and in both ENV1 and ENV2.
How does that work if ENV1 Release parameter is a range of values from 0 to 50 and the sustain pedal is only binary ?
So, to follow up on this question, when sustain pedal is learned by Deluge's "Release" parameter in ENV1 as per the instructions above, the way it behaves is that every press of the pedal lowers the numerical "Release" value by increment of 1 (when numerical value of "Release" is displayed, each press of the pedal lowers the value by 1. So it takes 50 presses for the value to go from 50 to 0 ). This obviously does not work.
Oh yeah, there is an issue with momentary CC's, so what you'd need to do is do the learning with a continuous controller i.e. a knob or a fader, sending the same CC64 as the sustain pedal. And then use the sustain pedal after doing the learning
~ Distinguished Delugate ᕕ( ◎_◎)ᕗ
I see. I guess an app connected via MIDI could do the CC cheating too?
Also, the max release on Deluge's envelopes isn't very long. Is that the limit of what the max length of the sustain can be then?
Yeah an app can do it too
Yes, that is indeed the limit of the release
~ Distinguished Delugate ᕕ( ◎_◎)ᕗ
That's a bummer... Any idea why such a basic MIDI functionality is not implemented on so many devices? This is my second one already, first one was Organelle by C&G. I was equally surprised. What's the limitation? I'm asking because I'm hoping this can be changed in a firmware. If crazy MPE features are coming, how about such basic function which has been around for hundreds of years in pianos is also implemented?
It might be implemented in the future, however I have nothing to do with that
I don't know what the limitation is, but in theory it should be possible to do.
In itself, the problem in this context is the midi learning process, momentary CC learning needs to be optmimized.
The sustain function is there, and could be refined
~ Distinguished Delugate ᕕ( ◎_◎)ᕗ
Yeah, but the "Release" workaround is not really a solution. I know so many pieces that need to be played with a sustain longer that what the max "Release" length offers. It's a musical instrument, it really should respect piano technique, come on! Especially with all the multi sampling potential.
I do play multi-sampled pianos, and max release will indeed let the whole samples ring out. Don't need any more release than that, wouldn't be possible either
Its different than release for internal synths. But with synths, try this: Attack 0, Decay 50, Sustain 0, Release 50. You can get around 50 seconds of release this way. In this case the Decay amount controls release length. As soon as you change Sustain to 1 or release to 49 this stops working.
~ Distinguished Delugate ᕕ( ◎_◎)ᕗ
Oh yeah, 50 seconds is plenty. Trying to find an iOS app that could sent the continuous CC64 message for the learning "cheat". Any idea? Thank you Icoustik!
So I managed to make it work, sort of. Zoia pedal came to the rescue, I used its MIDI CC OUT module to sweep through 0-127 values on CC64 and connected it to MIDI in on the Deluge. This way I managed to make Deluge learn the full range of it to the "Release" parameter of ENV1 as suggested. Now pressing the pedal works as expected: when the piano's sustain pedal is depressed, the value is 50, when released it is 0. However, with Decay set to 50 releasing the pedal does not immediately mute the sound (I'm testing it with the 0 factory preset synth) and lowering it obviously affects how long the sound rings out when the pedal is not pressed. I tried making CC64 control Decay too but that obviously does not work as then the sound rings out only if pedal is depressed. I'm confused why Sustain has to be at 0 here, I'm sure it's pretty obvious but I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the ADSR... I need to sleep on it I think. I suspect this will work fine if it's not a synth but a sample....
Anyway, thank you for all the help. Small steps. Still, I think this should not be this complicated, having to do this for every single preset is a major pain in the but.
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For anyone else trying this:
I have followed this thread and, using a DAW VST plugin, learned the full range of CC64 to Env1 Release, so the sustain pedal now sets Env1 Release at either 0 or 50.
The best ADSR settings for piano-like sustain pedal use with a piano sample based synth are:
Env1: A-0, D-0, S-50, R-(0-50 Pedal)
Env2: A-0, D-0, S-50, R-50
This makes a multi-sampled piano synth play normally with the sustain pedal.
The good news is it's exactly like a piano should be.
With a synth Osc engine instead of samples, I have tried to get the sustain pedal to hold the note endlessly but I can't find a way to do that. The best it can do is behave like a piano does, so the note slowly decays when holding the keys or pedal down, and is cut off when keys and pedal are released.
This is a lot better than a traditional organ, but not as good as a modern synth.
If you want synth notes to cut off as soon as the pedal is released, settings as above.
If you want a much longer release, but notes won't cut off as soon as pedal is released (they will still taper down faster than with pedal depressed), follow Icoustik's Env1 A-0, D-50, S-0, R-50
Hello, what exactly do you mean here? Could you please describe it step by step?
While I'm waiting for my OLED upgrade... Has this sustain pedal issue been addressed in any of the firmwares? With all the new and advanced features, has the way the Deluge works with sustain pedal been streamlined or does it still require the convoluted method described above?
it's something that has been discussed in being addressed for future community firmware, but not addressed currently