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@amiga909 thanks a lot for facilitating this discussion, hopefully Synthstrom see some merit in it as well.
I see a few good solutions in this thread but it seems to boil down to what is default versus "extra action" behavior. My preference is to have the default behavior be DAW mode with extra action taken to differentiate parameters between clips. I understand preferring the opposite however and i don't think it would be that big a deal if the extra action was to keep a parameter change between clips like was suggested with Keep or Affect Entire modes.
I know that for me on a particular sound I keep the vast majority of parameters the same and only change a few parameters between clips. Why should the deluge's behavior favor the exception to parameter changes rather than the rule? I may be in the minority here.....
I agree however with keeping the ability to live edit different clips while a song is playing, I see that my suggestion of using the rec button wont work in this regard. On the flip side can anyone see the benefit of live editing many clips at once while playing? Eg you could sweep a filter down, change the part and sweep the filter back up smoothly.
All that said even if this issues is never addressed it's in no way a deal breaker for the deluge for me. Just one of several annoyances that I don't quite get. Came from ableton, don't get me started on that....
It would be very useful to be able to scale incoming midi cc. I am used to Live's implementation where a minimum and maximum value are selected, then the incoming 0 to 127 messages adjust the parameter withing the min and max value.
Setting min higher than max would allow you to invert control (morph filter and cross fading anybody?)
As for workflow, perhaps when you learn a control, the max and min parameters could be shown on the display with the data entry knob used to set and switch between them. Readjustment could be done by repeating the normal learn procedure.
Coupled with some finer control over the deluges parameters (sample speed please!), this feature could be used to map the full range of motion of a controller on to the sweet spot of a particular control.
Please consider and thanks for your hard work, the deluge is a great instrument.
@amiga909 Yeah I find it really annoying. Easily one of my biggest gripes with the deluge.
My suggestion like yours is that we make all parameters the same for cloned clips (DAW style) but add the ability to set constant parameter automation per clip as follows:
- While play and rec are on, automation recording works as normal.
- While play is off and rec is on, parameters are set per clip for the entirety of that clip. This includes from the pad shortcuts.
- The clip will keep the automated param value no matter the settings on other cloned clips (yay different filter etc between clips without recording!!) but now when you delete the automation on a parameter it reverts back to the non automated value for the cloned clip network. Or if none exist, sets the non automated value to the value of the automation that just got deleted.
This way you keep the INDUSTRY STANDARD ability to make global adjustments to parameters on many clips but also easy set custom values on individual clips.
Please poke holes in this idea but the way it works now makes it really hard to manage unless you know ahead of time exactly what the values for automation ready params should be (I don't!). Especially if you have many clips on the same instrument.
I guess copy paste of MIDI and params separately would work too.
in the superbooth 19 video Ian mentioned midi presets are in the works and will come to 3.0 and 3.1. would not make much sense for me if midi presets were restricted to 16 CCs, i rather want to define all CCs in a preset file on the computer and then on the Deluge pick 1-16 of them in a track. then NRPN or even Sysex messages could be defined in the preset file via computer text editor too, no need to offer an internal editor imho.
I thought he meant just the midi outputs. Cool idea.
Would love to see these kinds of upgrades on midi in too. Would be great to be able to have midi templates for songs and kits. The deluge should be able to learn and select NRPN and all kinds of midi messages automatically. Currently we can only use notes and cc, midi is stored per song and its kind of spotty so a file based system would be wonderful. Especially with the alphanumeric names it should be easy to use, maybe use the context menu on save/load? would be great to have files at kit/synth and song levels.
Rather than a full blown editor i would just like to see file access with the usb port, should be way easier to implement. Midi files can be saved as xml and managed file editors until any software happens.
What I really want to see though is Midi 2.0 support when it comes out.
Indeed. Bump the limit up to 127 and increase the total time up to the equivalent of 96 on the current scale. More fine control and way extended capability.
Worried about time it taking too long and being painful when using the data entry wheel? Velocity control... twist fast to switch to +-2...5 per click mode.
I think the vast majority of parameters in the deluge could do with this treatment.
Curios to know if this is on Rohan's radar and what sort of technical obstacles there would be.
Honestly I kind of like the current song view its pretty cool and innovative. I think a few tweaks and improvements could satisfy what people coming from ableton might look for.
Main challenges with the current mode is keeping track of many clips and instruments, whats playing and starting/stopping a variety of different clips easily. This is something the vertical track method suggested earlier addresses. This proposal is equal to the vertical track method for sorting instruments, shows up to as many distinct clips per view and keeps the Deluge's ability to show distinct clip lengths as well as position of the play-head.
Song mode 2.0:
imagine the following was a row of pads on the deluge aka 1 track,
(1) (1) (1) (1) (2) (2) (2) (2) (3) (3) (3) (3) (3) (3) (3) (3) (L) (S)
1-3 correspond to different colored clips on the same instrument, the color is the section it belongs to.
This way you can still see the corresponding length of different clips.
Similar to arranger mode, pressing the leftmost pad on a track will select it. The the launch pad will then stop and start the selected track in a row like now. Pressing shift should allow you to switch between clips using the leftmost pads in the middle of a playing clip just like the launch button.
Everything else is the same or a carry over of current functionality.
Scroll around your clips using <>. Move or copy a clip or make a new one on an empty pad to the right of your existing clips, the scroll range should automatically adjust for 1 or 2 blank pads on the far right. Copy or create a new instrument on an empty row.
Let me know what you think....