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Cloned track with same synth

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Comments

  • 1
    maimai Posts: 21

    @doodloo said:
    Please either document or opensource.

    What do you mean with „document“? Should there be a section in the manual that describes which parameter is affecting clones and which parameter doesn’t? I don’t think that this really helps, because this list has to be very complex. There is so much illogical stuff going on, that would be still too confusing for the user, because there are also exceptions for some parameters. Example:

    @amiga909 said:
    actually I agree, it is not clear for me either.
    cloned tracks are somehow only half-breed clones. params like synth mode or transpose affect other clones, params like cutoff not. likely all params assigned to a golden knob dont affect other clones. then again, for example delay type (via push function) changes for all clones.

    So the list must consider 4 different possibilities for each(!) parameter:
    A) there are parameters which aren’t affecting clones (like cutoff)
    B.) other parameters do affect their clones (like transpose)
    C) but if a B.) type parameter is assigned to a knob, it behaves like an A) type parameter
    D) but then again, other functions which are assigned to the knobs (like delay type) are affecting clones...

    I guess potentially customers which are reading the manual before buying, would be deterred completely. ;)

    @amiga909 said:
    yeah, that would be the expected behavior. all sound param changes should affect all clones. so a cloned track was just like a midi track routed to the same instrument. if i need specific params for a specific clone i can still record automation. thats the standard DAW way i guess.

    Yes, that’s the standard how sequencers are working. And there is a good reason for this. Since the Deluge allows per step automation it’s really easy to change a parameter quickly and precise for every clone which should sound different.

  • 0
    duelinmarkersduelinmarkers Austin TX USPosts: 137

    When people in this thread talk about "clones," do they just mean other tracks in the same song using the same preset? That is, it doesn't and shouldn't make a difference in Deluge's behavior whether a track was created by cloning an existing track or by creating a new track and choosing a synth or kit that is already in use by another track, right?

  • 5
    NorisNoris AustriaPosts: 38

    A cloned track is a duplication of a track to have a variation of the original track / sound. In song view press and hold the horizontal line of a track you want to clone and press the line below. As far as I know it’s not possible to set the same preset to a new track (which wasn’t cloned), but this isn’t the (main) problem.

    To reproduce the problem try this: clone the original track (1) to have a second variation. Then change in variation 2 the cutoff frequency and additionally transpose. Go back to variation 1 and you will recognize that cutoff didn’t affect variation 1, but transpose did. There are many parameters like this and they behave different in different situations. The problem is that it’s never reasonable what will happen to your variations if you modify them. So you easily “damage“ them in a random matter.

  • 2

    a huuuge +1 !!

    hope this will be fixed soon.

  • 1
    rczrcz NYBeta Tester Posts: 111

    I have an issue with my midi controller and this functionality.

    When using a synth track I have 1 track on preset 100 and another track on 99 both mapped to the keyboard, switching track 2 to 100 removes the midi key map from both tracks.

    When using a kit track in the same way, switching track 2 seems to jumble up my midi map. 2 different kit pads that were assigned to midi pads before were re mapped to the same pad in many cases. It actually also added a midi map to 100a!

    Maybe I am just missing something but I think this pretty much prohibits the free live changing of presets with a midi controller.

    Seems like clone tracks mute/unmute each other in song mode. Maybe midi input could be tied to the same funtionality for clone tracks? Or just keep track 1 mapping and re enable track 2 mapping when it switches to another preset.

    Also clone tracks with differences are cool but i wish that when you saved a preset, all instances of that preset in your song would inherit the changes. Currently to my knowledge they don't, and its a pain to visit every instance to do the preset loading game if you want to just keep levels consistant.

    Anyway my 2 cents

    Cheers

  • 2
    JahraJahra Posts: 17

    i can confirm this behaviour between duplicated tracks. indeed it’s confusing and inconsistent. please make this more logical. thank you!

  • 0
    MaxOSMaxOS Los AngelesPosts: 50

    I hope this gets sorted out in the next firmware update. It makes it extremely difficult to adjust the volume for each track when trying mixing a song.

  • 0
    MaxOSMaxOS Los AngelesPosts: 50
    edited February 2019

    It seems like once you save the new preset that you want, you need to assign a different preset to the track you were working on before you apply the new desired preset to the other track.

    Post edited by MaxOS on
  • 1
    happyclimberhappyclimber francePosts: 41

    +10000

  • 3
    VJFranzKVJFranzK Los Angeles USABeta Tester Posts: 129

    This Deluge way could be used to do a lot of things! But I still wish for the simpler way I'm used to, on Electribes, etc. Which is:
    Every param for a synth is a Global value per file, UNLESS that is being overwritten by a "motion sequence" of knob adjustments.

    Also, every synth has an internal sound AND a MIDI out channel, it's not OR.
    ( which makes it easy to write songs while away from your full studio of outboard gear.)

    Music, Visuals, Reviews of Synths, Drum Machines, Apps
    YouTube: VJFranzK

  • 6

    hi @VJFranzK , i totally agree with you. but did you read this whole thread? i assume you read just the beginning because you wrote this:

    @VJFranzK said:
    This Deluge way could be used to do a lot of things! ...

    the main problem (which was discussed here at a later time) is that there is NO consistent “deluge way“ at all, because all parameters behave different in the way they’re changing clones (or not). so this is some kind of a “bug“ even if that way was meant to work like this, because it’s not possible to anticipate what will happen if you change parameters.

    i fear a lot of people just read the beginning and are thinking that this thread is some kind of feature request, which isn’t really the case. but i’m with you, if there will be a change the deluge should behave the way you’ve described.

  • 3
    amiga909amiga909 Central EuropePosts: 1,078

    @VJFranzK said:
    This Deluge way could be used to do a lot of things! But I still wish for the simpler way I'm used to, on Electribes, etc. Which is:
    Every param for a synth is a Global value per file, UNLESS that is being overwritten by a "motion sequence" of knob adjustments.

    >

    well explained.

    Also, every synth has an internal sound AND a MIDI out channel, it's not OR.
    ( which makes it easy to write songs while away from your full studio of outboard gear.)

    brilliant idea.
    Both MIDI and CV buttons could be toggled on/off, only SYNTH and KIT being exclusive to each other. So, in SYNTH or KIT mode i could choose to activate midi, cv, both or none.

  • 4
    DVBDVB USAPosts: 48

    I have to say ,the behavior of clone tracks is a complete clusterf*&k, especially with kit tracks.

    TL:DR version ... clone track behavior & Deluge inconsistency in general really kills workflow. These problems become more apparent the more you use the Deluge & while limitations can foster creativity, these are the opposite ... they kill productivity. What strikes me about this thread is that it's not Alien Brain whining about it but some hardcore Deluge acolytes sharing some disillusionment.

    Long-winded version below.


    Imagine a scenario where you're developing a song, starting with a beat. I don't know about you guys but I use clones to further develop the beats. The 4 bar intro has its own clip + a fill clip going into the main beat + various fills & a different beat for the bridge, more for the outro ... let's say 8 different drum clips (I'm pretty sure it was more for a simple 4 min song but there's no quick way to count them). Great, got basic drum tracks laid out in Arranger mode.

    Deluge still doesn't bounce down separate audio tracks so I have to live with drums stereo mixdown in the Deluge or bounce kit sounds panned hard through multiple passes (13 kit sounds total = 7 passes X 4 min means at least half an hour of bouncing just drum tracks). Eh, I'll live with a stereo mix & punch in any additional tracks later if needed, to balance the kit.

    Drum kits are samples so a little static. Let's run a tiny bit of LFO or random into the filter, volume, attack etc to humanize it a little. WTF ... changes made in one clone don't affect the others?!?!!!!?!?!! I have to go through each clip separately & make these adjustments to the kit, let's call it 1A. But I've been making adjustments as I go along, assuming the changes would hold across all "1A" kits. Nope. Many of my 1As are different from each other. Turns out the snare has different levels of reverb across the different clips, as just one example. :/ Never would have imagined begging for the sweet merciless behavior of Elektron kits but I was on my knees at this point.

    Painful yes, but this is only just the beginning. Bounce the drums to a stereo mix means I have to get all my levels & panning mostly right before I record the audio. Turns out these changes won't hold across clones so I have to do the mix of drums EIGHT TIMES, once for each "1A" clip. If you finish & want to make any tweaks, it's another 8x through all the clips.

    Fine then, how about I just save 1A as a preset & make the changes propagate that way? Nope. 1st clip where I save 1A is fine but the following clips are then incremented to 1B. And it seemed like I lost some of my modulation settings too but I was very frustrated at this point, in full tilt mode & ready to go all-in w/ 2,7 off suit so may not have been seeing clearly.

    After several wasted hours, let's just bounce the tracks down separately & mix ITB.

    Clone behavior doesn't make this straightforward anymore either. For each kit sound (bass drum, snare, hihat, etc), I've got to go through each clip & hard pan + affect all to turn off all reverb for the 2 sounds I want to bounce plus turn off the volume for every other sound. That's 13 kit sounds * 8 clilps ... 104 times making the same tedious adjustments. Perhaps there was a better way to do it but I was in full-tilt mode at this point, ready to go all in with 2 7 off suit & FML, you know?!?

    But wait there's more, turns out affect all is misleading. If you added reverb separately to the snare, then changing reverb using affect entire track doesn't actually affect the snare's reverb. I'm guessing there's 2 separate reverbs, one for the track & one for the sound. So after making all the adjustments & bouncing down the snare only to still hear reverb, I realized I had to check each kit sound's gold knob parameters individually to make sure I didn't get any unintended processing.

    In the end, it took the entire night to pull 4 minutes worth of drums off the Deluge. As an aside, I did try to pull the samples off the Deluge & sequence/record them through the Analog Rytm 8 line outs but turns out the Deluge preset samples aren't trimmed ... their start points are adjusted as part of the kit & I didn't know how the groove would be affected by using samples with different start points.

    Moral of the story, uhh ... don't use the Deluge for drums?!? Or in the studio?!? Hopefully, Rohan addresses the inconsistencies.

  • 2
    KenoubiKenoubi United StatesBeta Tester Posts: 46

    @DVB said:
    I have to say ,the behavior of clone tracks is a complete clusterf*&k, especially with kit tracks.

    TL:DR version ... clone track behavior & Deluge inconsistency in general really kills workflow. These problems become more apparent the more you use the Deluge & while limitations can foster creativity, these are the opposite ... they kill productivity. What strikes me about this thread is that it's not Alien Brain whining about it but some hardcore Deluge acolytes sharing some disillusionment.

    I regret that I can only +1 this post once.

    I've been messing more with synths than drums, and I've now decided to keep a copy of every song with no parameter edits, in case I completely ruin everything... and even so I've found myself very reluctant to do anything beyond make a clip-instance white (in Arranger view) and record some simple automation to it.

    @rohan, now that 3.0 is out, after we get a 3.0.1 that fixes the tempo drift issue, can we please, please do something about this in 3.1? 3.0 gives a ton of stuff to people who use the Deluge live and / or who play another instrument. But for people using the Deluge synth engine, especially in the studio, the way that parameters and presets are handled has got to be the #1 case where the Deluge does something you don't want it to (rather than just lacking the ability to do something you'd like it to do).

  • 0
    MaxOSMaxOS Los AngelesPosts: 50

    I think I found a clunky but reliable workaround for this:

    • First, I created a dummy preset (named it "dummy" now that 3.0 lets you)

    • Then I make changes to a parameter (let's say close the LPF for a bass sound)

    • Then I save the preset into the existing slot (let's say 5c)

    • Then I also save it to the dummy slot. Now all linked tracks with the preset are set to the dummy slot

    • If you change all of those linked tracks back to the original slot (5c), then you should be able to hear the new preset (with closed LPF) on all of the linked tracks

  • 2
    KenoubiKenoubi United StatesBeta Tester Posts: 46

    @MaxOS said:
    I think I found a clunky but reliable workaround for this:

    • First, I created a dummy preset (named it "dummy" now that 3.0 lets you)

    • Then I make changes to a parameter (let's say close the LPF for a bass sound)

    • Then I save the preset into the existing slot (let's say 5c)

    • Then I also save it to the dummy slot. Now all linked tracks with the preset are set to the dummy slot

    • If you change all of those linked tracks back to the original slot (5c), then you should be able to hear the new preset (with closed LPF) on all of the linked tracks

    Interesting. Does this trash any automation you might have on any of those clips, though? Most workarounds that I know of (I figured one out myself that involved changing the clip to a MIDI clip and then back to a synth clip, with a save/load in between) will also erase the automation, which is probably not what you want and can potentially destroy a fair bit of work.

  • 0
    MaxOSMaxOS Los AngelesPosts: 50

    @Kenoubi
    I'm sad to report that automations get left out with my method as well.

    There really needs to be a function to disable song-internal preset saving and only work off of what has been saved to the card.

  • 3
    pdo23pdo23 Beta Tester Posts: 4

    +1 for same synth params for all tracks using it (except automation is recorded on track), current behavior is big disadvantage

  • 1
    MaxOSMaxOS Los AngelesPosts: 50

    +1 still brooding over this in 2020 :/

  • 2
    OdoSendaidokaiOdoSendaidokai BerlinPosts: 326

    @pdo23 said:
    +1 for same synth params for all tracks using it (except automation is recorded on track), current behavior is big disadvantage

    +1


    Odo Sendaidokai from Berlin

  • 1
    ModulatiaModulatia United StatesPosts: 4

    Is there a list anywhere of which parameters are shared and which are not? That would help me in the short term.

  • 3
    NorisNoris AustriaPosts: 38

    I haven’t use my Deluge since this strange behavior really kills my workflow and creativity. Are there any plans to change that some day @rohan or @Ian_Jorgensen ?

    Would be nice if you guys could make a statement, because I like to know if it makes sense to wait, or if I should sell my Deluge. A rough answer would be very helpful (afaik for many others, too). Thanks

  • 2
    iskoisko ItalyPosts: 4

    New Deluge user here. I think D is more intuitive than I expected but this behaviour on cloned clip also kills my workflow. In live situation I usally change a sound and I expect that a clone track sound the same when I change to it to have different notes playing. If I want a new sound I copy it, not clone it. If I want some variations I will apply to single notes. Please give this feature a chance, I love the D synth, don't let me go for external gear only for this behaviour, please!

  • 0
    volstehvolsteh CroatiaPosts: 418
    edited February 2021

    @isko said:
    New Deluge user here. I think D is more intuitive than I expected but this behaviour on cloned clip also kills my workflow. In live situation I usally change a sound and I expect that a clone track sound the same when I change to it to have different notes playing. If I want a new sound I copy it, not clone it. If I want some variations I will apply to single notes. Please give this feature a chance, I love the D synth, don't let me go for external gear only for this behaviour, please!

    Maybe a workaround would be to control a synth track with midi tracks so all the changes on the synth would stay... But different clone/copy options would be awesome.

    Post edited by volsteh on

    🅽🅾🆅🅸🅲🅴 🅳🅴🅻🆄🅶🅸🅾🅽🅸🆂🆃?

  • 1

    Hi,
    After using the Deluge for a while, I’ve also discovered this unusual behaviour of cloned tracks...

    ...Load the 1st preset to track 1 & lower its cutoff; then clone this same preset to track 2 & raise its cutoff. Then I play these patterns consecutively in the Arranger view - The 1st pattern has a low cutoff, the 2nd has a high cutoff. Great! That means I can change everything in the clone track and it’s completely independent right!? Wrong! I try transposing the clone pattern & it effects the 1st too...

    I agree with others that there should be 2 copy/clone modes - 1) all parameters are linked between patterns/clones. 2) all parameters are independent (unlinked) between patterns/clones.

    Atm, it’s just too confusing to know what’s going to happen when cloning, so better to save/use a new preset per track

    Thanks for reading 👍

  • 0
    volstehvolsteh CroatiaPosts: 418

    Transpose by semitone works on all tracks that have scale on.

    🅽🅾🆅🅸🅲🅴 🅳🅴🅻🆄🅶🅸🅾🅽🅸🆂🆃?

  • 1
    FnordFnord CanadaBeta Tester Posts: 21

    Has anyone managed to get more clarity on this?

  • 1
    MaxOSMaxOS Los AngelesPosts: 50

    I'm praying that the next firmware update lets you adjust parameters across tracks sharing the same preset.

  • 2
    PercivalePercivale SingaporeBeta Tester Posts: 32

    Can we have a DOUBLE function (scroll from Clone after long press) to take care of what was mentioned while CLONE can stay for those who use it?

  • 0
    chriseskowchriseskow Posts: 4
    edited January 2022

    EDIT: I just realized that @volsteh suggested this exact workaround a few posts above... so consider below as instructions for implementing their idea. :)

    I think I figured out a workaround for the problem of keeping parameters consistent when switching between different clones: route the Deluge's MIDI output back into itself and use MIDI clips to sequence a synth/kit clip. This separates your sound design (synth/kit clip) from your sequencer patterns (MIDI clips).

    1. Go into global settings and turn MIDI Thru OFF. Not doing so will cause major feedback loop problems... ;)
    2. Use a DIN MIDI cable to connect the Deluge MIDI Out to MIDI In. There may be ways to do this via USB but I haven't gotten it to work.
    3. Create a new synth clip and set the desired preset and sound design parameters. Don't program any notes into this clip (in fact, just keep it muted at all times)
    4. Create a new MIDI clip and set it to channel 1 (or whatever). Add the notes you want the synth clip to play here.
    5. Now to link the two clips together, go to Song view and press Play. Hold Learn and press one of the pads on the the synth clip row. The MIDI clip's notes should feed back into the Deluge and immediately cause it to learn the synth clip to MIDI channel you specified. (You could also use an external MIDI keyboard to do this.)
    6. Clone the MIDI clip as many times as you want to create pattern variations.

    Now, any parameters you tweak in the synth clip will be retained globally, regardless of which pattern (MIDI clip) is playing.

    This could be used with kit clips as well, though the MIDI learning process is more tedious. An external MIDI controller would help.

    I haven't tested it yet, but automation/parameter locking can probably be done by recording CC automations within a MIDI clip and then learning that CC to a particular parameter back in the synth clip.

    Caveats:

    • This requires you to physically route the Deluge MIDI back into itself, which may be difficult/impossible depending on your setup.
    • This requires you to allocate a spare MIDI channel for each synth/kit you want to control this way, and as well as adding an additional clip to your song.
    • I don't know if this will cause any "MIDI feedback loop" type problems - I haven't noticed any issues so far (except when MIDI Thru is left on).
    Post edited by chriseskow on
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