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Odd time signatures, cross-screen

10
duelinmarkersduelinmarkers Austin TX USPosts: 137

I'm doing odd time signatures by setting odd track lengths, e.g., for a 7/8 piece, a one-measure track is shortened a half-beat from the default to 14 16th notes. This gets awkward for longer tracks, where (at the default zoom level) the second measure starts on the last two columns of the first screen, the third measure starts with the last four columns of the second screen, etc. This also makes cross-screen useless, as screens no longer align with a consistent musical unit.

Is there a better way to do odd times? Is there a hack for getting cross screen to be as useful for a track in an odd time as it is for common time?

Best Answer

  • 1
    duelinmarkersduelinmarkers Austin TX USPosts: 137
    Answer ✓

    I think a reply is considered an answer by default. When I logged in just now, each reply was followed by a "Does this answer the question?" I gave each a "No," and now I'm guessing you'll no longer see it marked "Answered."

Answers

  • 5
    GentleGGentleG NetherlandsPosts: 8

    +1

    for 5/8 , 6/8 & 7/8 I would like a solution like the triplets view
    so maybe: hold [triplets view] and turn to set time signature

  • 0
    pfrfpfrf ca, u.s.a.Posts: 165

    Why is this thread marked “answered”? I’m interested to know what that answer was since it isn’t posted. OP, did you get a PM or something?

  • 0
    amiga909amiga909 Central EuropePosts: 1,078

    forum hacked? i see in loads of threads loads of “edited” in red color. cant remember seeing that much.

  • 1
    duelinmarkersduelinmarkers Austin TX USPosts: 137
    edited February 2019

    @GentleG said:

    for 5/8 , 6/8 & 7/8 I would like a solution like the triplets view

    I think this is best approach.

    I just played around with triplets view for 6/8 and thought it seemed fine. (To get to what I think is the truest representation I first doubled a blank track's length so I was zoomed to 8th notes, then turned on triplets view, then zoomed back out to 16th notes.) Have you found problems with this?

    so maybe: hold [triplets view] and turn to set time signature

    Thats a great idea! An alternative would be Shift-Triplets.

    Post edited by duelinmarkers on
  • 0
    VJFranzKVJFranzK Los Angeles USABeta Tester Posts: 129

    Right! I have thought this also, while doing 5 and 7 Beat things.
    Might as well have each bar on one "screen" so we know what's happening

    Music, Visuals, Reviews of Synths, Drum Machines, Apps
    YouTube: VJFranzK

  • 0
    poldensteinpoldenstein italyBeta Tester Posts: 43

    Yes, working in odd time signatures and with polyrhythms gets problematic as soon as complexity is increased. Try putting together a few odd clips in arranger view and see what I mean. Probably the best way to display odd bars would be like in triplets view, using a white column to mark end of bar.

  • 0
    esc746esc746 IrelandPosts: 12

    I would vote for a solution that just shows a bar per screen, with no attempt to have the different rhythms cross screens. I realise that this breaks the usual display paradigm, but them polyrhythms are crazy critters!

  • 1
    duelinmarkersduelinmarkers Austin TX USPosts: 137

    An interesting issue to consider here is that triplets view doesn't actually remove or skip time from the bar, it just divides it up differently. At any reasonable zoom level, that division works cleanly with Deluge's 192nd note resolution. But 192 isn't evenly divisible by any more exotic beats-per-measure I'm likely to want (5, 7, 9), so even though we'd like to see this visualized like triplets view, it would have to be implemented very differently.

  • 0
    bazzmakabazzmaka CHPosts: 12

    +1
    Add the following use case: song with two parts, one in 4/4, the other one in 5/4. Program a drum clip for each part. Then (loop)-record an instrument in real-time for the two parts, toggling back and forth between them // First it would be nice to have a view that gives you a clear indication on where you are in the song. Currently, this is very confusing (see posts above). Second, because of the confusing graphic representation, I'm not even sure if recording over a 5/4 drum track works at all. Sometimes it seems to work, but sometimes the deluge wants to complete "the measure" (i.e. in 4/4, even if all other clips in the part are 5/4) before it jumps to the next row, or terminates and loops the clip, respectively.

  • 0
    PeeDeePeeDee AustraliaPosts: 2

    Hi All. Newb here. Just wondering if there's been any progress that anyone can report on with programing the Deluge in odd time signatures.
    I'm not a Deluge owner (yet), but was looking at an MPC Force until I discovered their weakness with time signature, poly meter and poly rhythm and came across a comment that the Deluge had the capabilities.
    But reading this thread I was not quite sure whether Deluge has the capability or if it does whether it is a laborious process to achieve. Ian Jorgensen has kindly confirmed the Deluge has the capability and I would love to hear from users how easy they find composing in odd meters
    When I say odd meters I mean 5,7,9,11,13,15 etc.
    Thanks

  • 0
    jwhitmorejwhitmore IrelandPosts: 9

    Thanks for the thread, saves me asking the question. I'll just add my, much more limited, use case. I wanted to do something with a few bars of 3/4 as an intro and then change to 4/4 for the rest of the tune. I tried to do that with triplet view in one short intro clip and then the other clips in normal view.

    Maybe I've not done it correctly, but it's not really working for me as, has been mentioned previously in the this conversation, triplet view is not really 3/4, it just divides up the bar differently. So in my case even thought I've got 3 and 4 beats in bars they are at completely different tempos, so 3 beats are spread over the 4 beat bar, (obviously as that's a triplet ;)

    Anyhow have to move to a laptop and use that.

  • 1
    WeebeatsieWeebeatsie Bonny ScotlandPosts: 11

    @jwhitmore said:
    Thanks for the thread, saves me asking the question. I'll just add my, much more limited, use case. I wanted to do something with a few bars of 3/4 as an intro and then change to 4/4 for the rest of the tune. I tried to do that with triplet view in one short intro clip and then the other clips in normal view.

    Maybe I've not done it correctly, but it's not really working for me as, has been mentioned previously in the this conversation, triplet view is not really 3/4, it just divides up the bar differently. So in my case even thought I've got 3 and 4 beats in bars they are at completely different tempos, so 3 beats are spread over the 4 beat bar, (obviously as that's a triplet ;)

    Anyhow have to move to a laptop and use that.

    Yep, like you said, triplet view is not 3/4. it is still 4/4 with each beat divided into 3 rather than 2 (or 4) So your tempo would be shifting by like 30%!
    For 3/4 Hold Shift and Press and turn <> to change clip length to 0.3.0 bars for every clip in that section. 3/4 is a lot easier to program than any odd numbers above 4, due to the grid. Even then it can get a bit mathsy if you are zooming in even just to 16ths etc.

    As for 5, 7, 9 and so on, programming in a silent "metronome" note on every beat as a visual reference point is helpful with kits but not so much with synths/melodic things. Other than that I'm not sure how to get around it once you are zoomed in...

  • 0
    jwhitmorejwhitmore IrelandPosts: 9

    @Weebeatsie said:
    For 3/4 Hold Shift and Press and turn <> to change clip length to 0.3.0 bars for every clip in that section. 3/4 is a lot easier to program than any odd numbers above 4, due to the grid. Even then it can get a bit mathsy if you are zooming in even just to 16ths etc.

    Thank you didn't know about that solution. I'll try that out, but just off the top of my head I'm wondering will that 3/4 clip have to have a different tempo from other clips, That's an interesting idea.

    Thanks again.

  • 0
    PeeDeePeeDee AustraliaPosts: 2

    @Weebeatsie said:

    For 3/4 Hold Shift and Press and turn <> to change clip length to 0.3.0 bars for every clip in that section.

    What does the '0.3.0 bars' mean? Like, what does the first zero refer to; the 3 must have something to do with 3/4 time signature (I would think 3 quarter notes per bar); and what does the final zero refer to?

  • 0
    WeebeatsieWeebeatsie Bonny ScotlandPosts: 11

    @PeeDee said:

    @Weebeatsie said:

    For 3/4 Hold Shift and Press and turn <> to change clip length to 0.3.0 bars for every clip in that section.

    What does the '0.3.0 bars' mean? Like, what does the first zero refer to; the 3 must have something to do with 3/4 time signature (I would think 3 quarter notes per bar); and what does the final zero refer to?

    That's what the display shows. The first number refers to bars, the second to beats and the final to sixteenths.
    It is relating to a default of 4/4. So 1 bar of 4/4 shows as 1.0.0 (1 bar, 0 beats, 0 sixteenths)
    So 0.3.0 means 0 bars, 3 beats, 0 sixteenths.
    You can also set it to 1.2.0 for 3/4 timing although technically this is 6/4.

  • 0
    WeebeatsieWeebeatsie Bonny ScotlandPosts: 11
    edited June 2020

    @jwhitmore said:

    @Weebeatsie said:
    For 3/4 Hold Shift and Press and turn <> to change clip length to 0.3.0 bars for every clip in that section. 3/4 is a lot easier to program than any odd numbers above 4, due to the grid. Even then it can get a bit mathsy if you are zooming in even just to 16ths etc.

    Thank you didn't know about that solution. I'll try that out, but just off the top of my head I'm wondering will that 3/4 clip have to have a different tempo from other clips, That's an interesting idea.

    Thanks again.

    No worries mate. The 3/4 section will be the same tempo as a 4/4 section. See the comment above for explanation :)

    Happy waltzing

    Post edited by Weebeatsie on
  • 0
    RasmusJesRasmusJes DenmarkPosts: 4

    +1. This is my absolutely most wanted update request.

  • 1
    encosionencosion London, UKBeta Tester Posts: 5

    My workaround for tracking 'odd' time signaturea and or changes is to use a muted dummy track (or two) in arranger to highlight where each 1 should be. Painstaking at times but super useful when trying to keep things 'sensible' and joined up without having constantly try to count in your head.

  • 0
    workergrayworkergray Gulfport, FloridaBeta Tester Posts: 222
    edited March 2021

    Granted, it's not a "perfect" solution, but just adjusting the track length to a multiple of your intended signature works just fine.
    If you wish to switch time signatures between odd & even, you'll have to "zoom in" on the arranger view to ensure one starts when the other ends..
    I've made a song that does this-- switching between 7 and 8 (14 & 16) and it works well enough.

    Post edited by workergray on
  • 1
    IcoustikIcoustik NorwayModerator, Beta Tester, Mentor Posts: 1,017
    edited March 2021

    Here's some useful info in general - polyrhythms vs polymeters:

    Post edited by Icoustik on

    ~ Distinguished Delugate ᕕ( ◎_◎)ᕗ

  • 0
    YwenYwen Paris, FrancePosts: 21
    edited April 2021

    @duelinmarkers said:
    But 192 isn't evenly divisible by any more exotic beats-per-measure I'm likely to want (5, 7, 9), so even though we'd like to see this visualized like triplets view, it would have to be implemented very differently.

    I'm resurrecting that thread (and feature request :) ) since I think since the limitation mentioned above has changed in latest firmware updates. I would really love to see the triplets view become some general grid (beat division) parameter :)
    Like, yeah, hold triplet view and rotate the Select encoder to choose some prime number of substeps to divide each beat in (3, 5, 7, 11, 13 [*]). As for the current triplets view it would only change the layout of the clips (not playback). This means the zoom would have to be auto-adjusted when selecting a division of 5 or above (since on 16 pads you can only show 2 beats of 5 (or 7) substeps each (which amounts to a x2 zoom), or 1 beat of 11 (or 13) substeps (a x4 zoom). So depending on your substep-division a bar could take 1, 2 or 4 pages (but you'd still have them be paginated nicely, ie. no bar would begin right at the middle of a page, and cross-screen would still work in a practical manner).

    [*] You need only prime numbers since other divisions are reachable by choosing one of the primes and zooming in (e.g. say I want a grid of 10 substeps per beats: I just select a grid division of 5 and zoom x2).
    And I went up to 13 only since higher primes are gonna be less useful (I mean, you _could_ want to make a 17:43 polyrhythm, but... ^^), and much harder to represent on a grid of 16 columns anyway.

    Post edited by Ywen on
  • 0
    YwenYwen Paris, FrancePosts: 21
    edited April 2021

    Now that I think about it, this feature could also take the following generic shape, which could be even simpler to work with:

    My idea is that "Triplets view" could work as an "insert padding columns" button: you hold it and then tap a column on the grid, and that column becomes "blank" (like last columns of each beat on current triplet view), and every event that was between that column and the previous one (or the beginning of the page) would be "compressed" on the view.
    So it'd still be just a view trick: the padding columns would remain blank on every page (screen) for that clip, but the full page would still take as much time to be played as if it contained no blank columns (so holding Triplets view and tapping columns 4, 8, 12 and 16 would get you the same effect as just tapping Triplets view).
    The clip would remember the positions of these padding columns when you switch back and forth between regular view and "triplets" view, and doing like Shift + Triplets view would clear that custom view, and go back to regular Triplet beat division.

    NB: I know this isn't the place to discuss feature suggestions, but given the feature suggestion form is closed currently, I just thought I could re-ignite the discussion about it.

    Post edited by Ywen on
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