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3.0 feature tease: QWERTY keyboard & new top panel labels.

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  • 0
    Ian_JorgensenIan_Jorgensen Wellington, New ZealandPosts: 614

    We'll make a PDF available when the online manual is updated, just like we do for the current system - which, haha, I just checked, and the link no longer works, which I guess is a product of us changing servers two weeks ago.

  • 1
    DVBDVB USAPosts: 48

    @Ian_Jorgensen said:

    @MPrinsen said:

    @Ian_Jorgensen said:

    @DVB said:
    I know you literally said that the terminology change from "track" to "clip" will have zero effect on how we use the box

    That is correct. It is simply a change in vernacular so that it makes more sense within the architecture of the Deluge, primarily because of the Arranger.

    I thought it was a hint to the highly requested clip launch view coming soon (like Ableton's session view)? :)

    It was not a hint to anything, it's a change we've been wanting to make for probably over a year, but were waiting until a panel revision

    @Ian_Jorgensen so new clip view coming or not? Sorry, I'm a dense American & need things spelled out. As @MPrinsen stated, it did seem like a big hint to clip view hence the request for confirmation/clarity.

    Also, might I suggest being a little more open on the current road map to the Deluge, 3.0 & beyond? Or an update to that original road map ... BTW, audio track bouncing eminent any time soon ... arranger mode + bouncing down drum kit tracks = NIGHTMARE ... only time I've ever wanted to throw the box out the window.

    It sounds like there are some big things planned for 3.0 but hard to imagine sales rocketing because of a wavetable synth & a keyboard so sounds like there are other things in there being held close to the vest. To be frank, the QWERTY keyboard & new panel overlay should be considered more like fixing flawed design decisions, not an exciting new feature. Don't get me wrong, I am totally EXCITED to finally get naming ability but it's not really a marketing point for prospective buyers.

    I can understand if you're trying to build hype for a new product launch or not wanting to Overbridge yourselves but many of us already own the product. I'd simply like to know where it's headed. Development seems to lurch from one area to unrelated areas ... 2.0 brought Arranger (which for me is the absolute best part of the Deluge now & distinguishes it from almost every other sequencer on the market), 2.1 wasn't extensive refinement/perfecting of arranger but multi-sampling ... I mean great, the sampling side needs work (lot of it, actually) but 3.0 veers away from the sampler into a new synth engine.

    I always buy my gear used but the only higher end pieces I've ever paid full price are were the Deluge & now the OP-Z. I'm rooting for you guys & willing to wait for the Deluge to reach its final state but would like to know what that is. I do have to say the OP-Z is a game-changer & if/when they get the sampling module released, it will be game on. Arranger mode means I'll probably keep both but imagine many won't.

  • 10
    Ian_JorgensenIan_Jorgensen Wellington, New ZealandPosts: 614
    edited March 2019

    Sorry DVB, we don't share our road map, and we won't in the future. We actually look at the Deluge as being an already amazing finished machine. We continually work at developing it further because we love that the UI has so much potential and we believe that it's a better way to exist in this industry - continually making products better, rather than constantly churning out new ones. Also, Rohan loves coding and I love seeing the pure joy in his face when he finishes a new feature.

    We made mistakes early on announcing a couple of things that were on a road map (that, was, hahahaha, a VERY long roadmap) we won't make that mistake again. When things are done, they're done, if they don't get done, they don't get done. We don't feel pressure to do anything or add any particular feature because the Deluge is already a dope device, it was dope when we started selling it for this price in 2016, it's ridiculously dope 6 major updates later at the very same price. We don't plan on putting the price up, yet we plan on adding lots more to it - we don't feel any pressure too, it's already amazing value for money, we do this because we want to. Machines have quirks, they don't always fit in with everyones workflow, sometimes people buy them and they don't do what they think, so they sell them...this if life.

    We try to look after our mental health and be happy in our work, and haha, putting the weight of a massive userbase who are all trying to pull you in different directions with the utmost belief that they each know best and their individual workflow is the most important, is not a healthy way to live.
    Rohan develops as his pace, the ideas/refinements/changes that he wants to implement that are influenced by our community, sometimes they don't get implemented quickly, sometimes they can take years of going back and forth and mutliple iterations, sometimes some come hell quickly. If we have to choose health and longevity over promising people stuff and then stressing out and having angry people because we can't deliver fast enough, we'll go with the former every time.

    Our next feature tease in a few weeks will have one-quarter of our user base lose their fucken minds, (seriously), one quarter be like "that's pretty cool", quarter be like "I might use that sometime" and a quarter "meh".

    Haha, and that's fine with us, and how it should be - we made a machine that does a ton of things - which means it gets used many different ways - which means we can never make everyone happy :)

    I'd simply like to know where it's headed.

    Just assume it's already finished, that way anything that comes is a bonus and you can enjoy each update, rather than live in anxiety over what might come next. The Deluge is fucking awesome, hell fun to make music on, to perform with and anything else is gravy.

    Please just let us do our thing :) We read these forums constantly and look at all the feedback on the features, but people bugging us, will just make the project no longer fun. And trust me, I know the frustration, there are things personally I would love that would make my workflow easier and faster (and I have the ear of the man) but aren't coming that soon (if at all), but fuck it, the Deluge rules and I can still have an awesome time with it, so I get about doing that.

    The OP-Z is a rad device for sure, looking forward to seeing what modules they release, it's an exciting format.

    Post edited by Ian_Jorgensen on
  • 0
    MPrinsenMPrinsen NetherlandsPosts: 157

    Amen! Respect to you guys!

  • 0
    DVBDVB USAPosts: 48

    Fair enough, can't disagree or take issue with anything you say.

    I know very similar feeling in terms of participating in the marketplace from an artisan perspective but large portions of the customer base expect a more corporate approach. Much empathy to you & Rohan ... please accept my critiques as acts of love ... if I didn't care, I'd just sell the box.

    @Ian_Jorgensen said:
    Sorry DVB, we don't share our road map, and we won't in the future. We actually look at the Deluge as being an already amazing finished machine. We continually work at developing it further because we love that the UI has so much potential and we believe that it's a better way to exist in this industry - continually making products better, rather than constantly churning out new ones. Also, Rohan loves coding and I love seeing the pure joy in his face when he finishes a new feature.

    We made mistakes early on announcing a couple of things that were on a road map (that, was, hahahaha, a VERY long roadmap) we won't make that mistake again. When things are done, they're done, if they don't get done, they don't get done. We don't feel pressure to do anything or add any particular feature because the Deluge is already a dope device, it was dope when we started selling it for this price in 2016, it's ridiculously dope 6 major updates later at the very same price. We don't plan on putting the price up, yet we plan on adding lots more to it - we don't feel any pressure too, it's already amazing value for money, we do this because we want to. Machines have quirks, they don't always fit in with everyones workflow, sometimes people buy them and they don't do what they think, so they sell them...this if life.

    We try to look after our mental health and be happy in our work, and haha, putting the weight of a massive userbase who are all trying to pull you in different directions with the utmost belief that they each know best and their individual workflow is the most important, is not a healthy way to live.
    Rohan develops as his pace, the ideas/refinements/changes that he wants to implement that are influenced by our community, sometimes they don't get implemented quickly, sometimes they can take years of going back and forth and mutliple iterations, sometimes some come hell quickly. If we have to choose health and longevity over promising people stuff and then stressing out and having angry people because we can't deliver fast enough, we'll go with the former every time.

    Our next feature tease in a few weeks will have one-quarter of our user base lose their fucken minds, (seriously), one quarter be like "that's pretty cool", quarter be like "I might use that sometime" and a quarter "meh".

    Haha, and that's fine with us, and how it should be - we made a machine that does a ton of things - which means it gets used many different ways - which means we can never make everyone happy :)

    I'd simply like to know where it's headed.

    Just assume it's already finished, that way anything that comes is a bonus and you can enjoy each update, rather than live in anxiety over what might come next. The Deluge is fucking awesome, hell fun to make music on, to perform with and anything else is gravy.

    Please just let us do our thing :) We read these forums constantly and look at all the feedback on the features, but people bugging us, will just make the project no longer fun. And trust me, I know the frustration, there are things personally I would love that would make my workflow easier and faster (and I have the ear of the man) but aren't coming that soon (if at all), but fuck it, the Deluge rules and I can still have an awesome time with it, so I get about doing that.

    The OP-Z is a rad device for sure, looking forward to seeing what modules they release, it's an exciting format.

  • 0
    Ian_JorgensenIan_Jorgensen Wellington, New ZealandPosts: 614

    Fair enough, can't disagree or take issue with anything you say.

    I know very similar feeling in terms of participating in the marketplace from an artisan perspective but large portions of the customer base expect a more corporate approach. Much empathy to you & Rohan ... please accept my critiques as acts of love ... if I didn't care, I'd just sell the box.

    <3

  • 3
    zug_bugzug_bug Austin TXPosts: 2

    Love y’all’s attitude, Ian. Burn out is the WORST. Running a large open-source project for years has tought me many of the same lessons sounds like you’ve already taken to heart. I bought and love the deluge for what it already is. Thanks for your time and energy responding to so many users. Know that for every one person posting critique there are hundreds too busy jamming in parks, back yards, shipping containers, and living rooms with this portable dream machine to stop by and say thank you. Keep up the great work in an emotionally sustainable way!

  • 0
    MonVieuxMilouMonVieuxMilou FrancePosts: 10
    edited April 2019

    I'm so grateful for this awesome machine, and I'm even more grateful to know that it's still getting new features.

    Our next feature tease in a few weeks will have one-quarter of our user base lose their fucken minds, (seriously), one quarter be like "that's pretty cool", quarter be like "I might use that sometime" and a quarter "meh".

    Now I'm hyped

    The OP-Z is a rad device for sure, looking forward to seeing what modules they release, it's an exciting format.

    In my opinion, the coolest competition of the Deluge are the Elektron machines.

    Post edited by MonVieuxMilou on
  • 0
    FranciscoArellanoFranciscoArellano ChilePosts: 10

    @Tenebrous said:
    I took the cheapo option and got out my label maker - you can't even tell the labels weren't there originally! ;)

    Interesting, how did u do that? :open_mouth:

  • 0
    TenebrousTenebrous EnglandPosts: 49
  • 0
    DVBDVB USAPosts: 48

    The OP-Z is a rad device for sure, looking forward to seeing what modules they release, it's an exciting format.

    In my opinion, the coolest competition of the Deluge are the Elektron machines.

    Lot of great machines out there for sure. Monomachine is a desert island box for me but I've always thought of Elektron as hardcore nerd machines ie not cool but none of them can directly challenge Deluge as an all-in-one box & none of them are portable.

    TE products look like hipster magnets. They're like the Apple of music gear (or IKEA ... I can't figure out which). I'm not a hipster but aesthetics are still important. If/when the OP-Z gets a sampler module, it will do the same things the Deluge does ... sampling, sequencing, synthing & portable at a fifth of its size as well. On nearly every level, the Deluge is a deeper machine but that comes at a price.

  • 1
    pikeypikey IrelandPosts: 17

    Ian thanks for your candid viewpoint on future plans.

    One thing that I might suggest that achieves both long term harmony for you and Rohan's mental state, as well as sating the community's desire for their own pet feature request is some expectation setting.

    If a highly upvoted feature isn't being worked on, and likely won't be picked up in the near future then perhaps state that it isn't a current priority in the thread. My assumption is up until now you might have avoided doing this because you don't want to disappoint anyone, but setting expectations with low priority/unlikely features would (at least personally) put the focus back on the new and exciting features that are announced, rather than dwelling on personal workflow bugbears.

    Just my 2c, I also get there is some amount of danger to this as some people might be very disappointed but in my professional experience I have found its the mystery of whether a bug/feature will ever be fixed/implemented that is the most frustrating thing for customers - people ultimately just want a resolution even if the answer is a 'no'.

  • 5
    Ian_JorgensenIan_Jorgensen Wellington, New ZealandPosts: 614
    edited April 2019

    Cheers Pikey. Though i could understand how from the outside that might make sense. Unfortunately we can't even do that. A "priority" for us might take 2 years or one week.... a non priority, the next update. Also, unlikely/likely isn't a possibility...I don't think we're closed off from anything really...and yeah, no point putting the kaibosh on ideas if they might flourish later, and yeah - Rohans 'soon' is very different from how most people view a 'soon'.
    The only way tbh is just to treat the Deluge as a finished product. Any foibles that exist, assume they are remaining. The minute we go into detail explaining a process on one feature we set a precedent that we can't maintain. There is simply no way to satisfy everybody. There will never be an end to us having to update people or give feedback on features - no way to determine if one thread is worth commenting on but another is not, if we say on threads that we're NOT going to continue with those ideas, then people will assume everything else we ARE going to do :). People will argue why we are communicating about that one and not about another. Lol. Seriously.. Going down any path in that direction ends up with us in poop. :)

    So yeah, simply put. Lol, I guess assume no for everything. If the Deluge doesn't work for anyone, best they sell it and then buy again when it's works the way they need - it's just easier on everyone's stress and anxiety levels that way.

    if there is a bug, report it and we'll smash it out...but if a "bug" is just that perhaps an effect doesn't work the way people feel it should, or that particular current workflow things don't make sense...these are HUGE changes and require very careful consideration as we have to be very careful about changing any current workflow - not every user follows all the updates and takes note of all things...we have many users still rocking 1.1, if they updated to 3.0 and it was just a hugely different machine with everything behaving differently or a thousand sub-menus requiring them specify which version of what parameter they'd want..it would be a nightmare, so this requires things to be rolled out in a very considered way and delicately. We have a substantial user-base now and we've had some people get confused/disheartened at changes, and that makes us sad, so we have to be careful.

    Haha, we even had one user get frustrated when last Rohan made the CPU more efficient to play more voices, as part of their workflow was to intentionally have the Deluge hit its limits and lose voices while playing and they had tons of songs based around that, intentionally written to drop out... (which is actually fucking cool, and their songs rule). haha, but yeah, for us to have an option to roll back to all the various points that Rohan even optimises the CPU, that would be crazy, but yeah, people get used to things and small changes can create a butterfly effect if not done right.

    That said...we're also very conscious of the improvements that could be made, but timing and implementation is very important, and shit, haha, we don't wanna make a change only to have to make another change to the same control...so rushing isn't our thing.

    Post edited by Ian_Jorgensen on
  • 0
    GameDudeGameDude EarthPosts: 51

    Never.Rush.Anything.- is a damn good philosophy mate. :)

  • 0
    pikeypikey IrelandPosts: 17

    I see your point there and it does make a lot of sense, good of you to set a precedent going forward. The deluge is awesome right now and I'm excited for whatever you and Rohan choose to work on next.

  • 1
    Ian_JorgensenIan_Jorgensen Wellington, New ZealandPosts: 614

    @pikey said:
    I see your point there and it does make a lot of sense, good of you to set a precedent going forward. The deluge is awesome right now and I'm excited for whatever you and Rohan choose to work on next.

    <3

  • 0
    punchedoutpunchedout United StatesPosts: 29

    Thank you for being so open and frank about your process for providing updates! I really appreciate the direct feedback and understand the need to reduce stress wherever possible.

    Thank you again Rohan for creating this device and continuing to support it!

  • 0
    darenagerdarenager Between a rack and a hardware placeBeta Tester Posts: 222

    Hoping for sample delete or better yet samples not automatically saving. Personally I’d prefer existing features to be finished/improved and workflow issues sorted rather than “ooh look a new synthesis method” or the Deluge faces becoming “jack of all trades, master of none” and will slowly but surely be abandoned by users, and that would be a damn shame.

    As I’ve said before limiting the beta to anyone who is prepared to do facebook, rather than having a smaller, but focussed set of experienced users and a proper beta program, runs the risk of a product that ends up being fragmented in use and has tons of good ideas but ends up being a PITA to use, I fear that I can see this happening.

    I sincerely hope my post doesn’t come across as a disgruntled moan, I think that some areas of the Deluge show real innovation and brilliance, but there are a lot of things that need attention before yet more new features are added, yes we all get excited about impressive new whizz-bang things, but honestly I’d take a solid, focussed, joy to use, less featured Deluge over a stuffed to the gills 1000 key combination bloated one, any day of the week.

    Anyway, it is great to see your commitment to the Deluge and I believe that valid criticism of a product is equally as important as everyone just waxing lyrical all the time into the echo chamber of love, so I hope my comments are taken in the spirit with which they are made.

  • 0
    krunchrkrunchr Mainz, GermanyBeta Tester Posts: 70

    No other product (and I've been spending money in gear since +35 years) is as close to "perfect" as the Deluge. If there's anything to criticize about the Deluge, it's a handful of details (which I won't repeat here). No monster features, but simple unspectacular options that would make life and work with this device much easier in practice.

  • 0
    MarkM39MarkM39 United KingdomPosts: 2

    Just got mine a few days back and it's really good. We all get greedy for things, but I think the continual development is great and while some would like to know everything, there's always more fun in surprises. We have to remember that they got this far so at what point do we just trust? Keep up the good work guys.

  • 1
    Ian_JorgensenIan_Jorgensen Wellington, New ZealandPosts: 614
    edited April 2019

    As I’ve said before limiting the beta to anyone who is prepared to do facebook, rather than having a smaller, but focussed set of experienced users and a proper beta program, runs the risk of a product that ends up being fragmented in use and has tons of good ideas but ends up being a PITA to use, I fear that I can see this happening.

    The FB group beta testing group is for bug finding before public release, what we implement is decided only by Rohan and myself and from primarily this forum, but haha, also my stalking of multiple other forums/groups/pages and seeing not only what people are saying about the Deluge, but every other device on the market. Haha, including stalking Elektronauts ;)
    I hear all the grumbles, I know everyone's little issues, some grumbles have been worked on for ages, some require other things to come first, some might stick around for ages, some might never go away, some might be gone in 3.0.
    As said, it's difficult balancing a growing user-base - but yeah, there is barely any grumble I haven't heard/read (many times over)

    Post edited by Ian_Jorgensen on
  • 0
    darenagerdarenager Between a rack and a hardware placeBeta Tester Posts: 222

    @Ian_Jorgensen Thanks for the reply, I can definitely respect your approach, and that you are such a small team having achieved all this so far is really something.

  • 0
    johntopleyjohntopley UKPosts: 26

    Hi @Ian_Jorgensen. I'm interested in ordering a replacement panel but having it fitted for me. Do you know how that's going to work i.e. should I get one delivered to me and then ship both the new panel and my Deluge off to the service centre? Or will the service centre hold a stock of the new panels? I'm worried about missing out on a new panel.

  • 0
    Ian_JorgensenIan_Jorgensen Wellington, New ZealandPosts: 614
    edited April 2019

    @johntopley we will have information about this soon. You won't miss out.

    Post edited by Ian_Jorgensen on
  • 0
    johntopleyjohntopley UKPosts: 26

    Great, thanks Ian!

  • 0
    jonesy101jonesy101 lodonPosts: 16
    edited April 2019

    For me the final piece of the Deluge puzzle has to be stem export. It would be magical but seems like a dark art to make happen - look at the mess Elektron made of Overbridge. Well fingers crossed it might happen this year with Deluge

    Post edited by jonesy101 on
  • 0
    FallboardFallboard SeattlePosts: 3

    Hey @Ian_Jorgensen I know you guys are super busy, but any word on when you're shipping out the replacement panels for us launch users? Thanks man and hats off to the staggeringly awesome updates so far!

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