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Midi! Midi! MIDI! (ProgramChange, access to Instant/Quantized launch/solo/mute via midi, cc ....)

21

I'm absolutely delighted with the power, versatility and playfulness of the Deluge (WOW!), but rather frustrated with the limitations concerning MIDI access to essential functions through external midi gear. Here are some key recommendations which I think are essential:

  1. Midi Program change receive!: vital for those of us who use pedals (or other interfaces) to toggle through songs/programs during live setups.
  2. Access to both quantized and instant mute, solo, and launch of tracks in song mode. AN ABSOLUTE MUST for useful/musical external mdi control
  3. CC button support!
    1. More standardized midi implementation: this one has come up in the forums already, but is very important to ease workflow and save time. Saving songs as midi templates only partially solves the problem. I believe this is a conversation worth having again, and more in depth with the community.

Comments

  • 4
    OdoSendaidokaiOdoSendaidokai BerlinPosts: 207

    Fully agree. As well the strange and limited 50 steps parameter change of all effects and filters instead of 127.
    And MIDI 2.0 is comming https://www.midi.org/articles-old/details-about-midi-2-0-midi-ci-profiles-and-property-exchange

  • 0
    StromerStromer GermanyPosts: 52

    @jurgis said:
    I'm absolutely delighted with the power, versatility and playfulness of the Deluge (WOW!), but rather frustrated with the limitations concerning MIDI access to essential functions through external midi gear. Here are some key recommendations which I think are essential:

    1. Midi Program change receive!: vital for those of us who use pedals (or other interfaces) to toggle through songs/programs during live setups.
    2. Access to both quantized and instant mute, solo, and launch of tracks in song mode. AN ABSOLUTE MUST for useful/musical external mdi control
    3. CC button support!
      1. More standardized midi implementation: this one has come up in the forums already, but is very important to ease workflow and save time. Saving songs as midi templates only partially solves the problem. I believe this is a conversation worth having again, and more in depth with the community.

    I did several similar suggestions long ago but in the preview of vs. 3.0 no changes in the midi implementation seem to be made? For me one of the biggest problems is that the cc-learning is sound-specific. Each sound has its own cc-table which is a no-go for working in a setup with ext. controllers. In my actual setup i work with 36 midi-ccs. When i change the sound all learings are gone and have do be made from scratch. Thats why i havn't worked with the Deluge since months. And indeed - 50 steps instead of 127 also sucks.

  • 0
    amiga909amiga909 SwitzerlandPosts: 793

    @OdoSendaidokai said:
    Fully agree. As well the strange and limited 50 steps parameter change of all effects and filters instead of 127.
    And MIDI 2.0 is comming https://www.midi.org/articles-old/details-about-midi-2-0-midi-ci-profiles-and-property-exchange

    yeah, midi 2.0 will be a gamechanger, cant wait, hope there will be 2.0 hardware in the next years. not in 40 years again 😄
    about the parameter step thing. really hope rohan could shed some light on this. in the xml files the hex values allow more than the displayed values as jamie and others pointed out. quickly tried before, hard to say by ear if Deluge maps every value between 0-127 to another internal value or if 0-127 gets remapped to 0-50. however, this is a good point and i really wish every non-list param simply gets a 0-127, or -63 to 63 range (and widens for env, distortion, bitcrush!). dont see a reason for these range limits.

  • 0
    jurgisjurgis vilniusPosts: 12

    @Stromer said:
    I did several similar suggestions long ago but in the preview of vs. 3.0 no changes in the midi implementation seem to be made? For me one of the biggest problems is that the cc-learning is sound-specific. Each sound has its own cc-table which is a no-go for working in a setup with ext. controllers. In my actual setup i work with 36 midi-ccs. When i change the sound all learings are gone and have do be made from scratch. Thats why i havn't worked with the Deluge since months. And indeed - 50 steps instead of 127 also sucks.

    Yeah... its a pain in the a$$..

  • 3
    duelinmarkersduelinmarkers Austin TX USPosts: 81

    To start to dig into the 50 vs 127 vs finer possible resolutions question, I just spent a while with a self-resonating filter (over noise) sound, external MIDI controller, gold parameter knob, black settings knob, some analysis software in VCV Rack, and a guitar tuner. I was only messing with the LPF cutoff.

    My preliminary conclusion is that an external MIDI controller and a gold parameter knob yield the exact same resolution, which is 128 distinct values. The black settings knob, as is pretty obvious, yields only 50 distinct values, corresponding to the displayed 0-50 (or actually "off" for the LPF), which are evenly spread out through the 0-127 range. The settings knob's 50 values are absolute, so any "fine-tuning" to a value "between" the displayed numbers get undone by ticking the settings knob up or down by one and then back again.

    In the past I thought I had heard more distinct stair-step changes when sweeping an external MIDI controller knob vs sweeping a gold parameter knob, but I couldn't find any evidence of this today.

  • 2
    amiga909amiga909 SwitzerlandPosts: 793
    edited July 15

    thanks for checking out @duelinmarkers
    yeah, the gold knobs are stepped for sure. as for midi control did another test with lfo speed mapped to a CC, havent compared files in an audio editor, but most certainly CCs are remapped to 50 values.
    thus using the mod matrix, for example lfo to cutoff i can hear there are more values, means it doesnt “hard step”. so in general the Deluge is capable of applying more values than 0-50 to e.g. cutoff. there should be a top rated request to remove these range limitations. so interesting if rohan could explain why he has made these range limits - there might be computational reasons, maybe it was just an assumption of what users want to do, or something else. seems to me at least midi CCs really shouldnt be remapped from 128 to 51 internal values.

    Post edited by amiga909 on
  • 0
    EISERMANNEISERMANN Hannover, GermanyPosts: 2

    @jurgis said:
    I'm absolutely delighted with the power, versatility and playfulness of the Deluge (WOW!), but rather frustrated with the limitations concerning MIDI access to essential functions through external midi gear. Here are some key recommendations which I think are essential:

    1. Midi Program change receive!: vital for those of us who use pedals (or other interfaces) to toggle through songs/programs during live setups.
    2. Access to both quantized and instant mute, solo, and launch of tracks in song mode. AN ABSOLUTE MUST for useful/musical external mdi control
    3. CC button support!
      1. More standardized midi implementation: this one has come up in the forums already, but is very important to ease workflow and save time. Saving songs as midi templates only partially solves the problem. I believe this is a conversation worth having again, and more in depth with the community.

    I want to add:

    • External controll of kit parameters in "Entire" mode, i.e. filter on drums.
  • 1
    rczrcz NYPosts: 53
    edited July 20

    @EISERMANN said:

    @jurgis said:
    I'm absolutely delighted with the power, versatility and playfulness of the Deluge (WOW!), but rather frustrated with the limitations concerning MIDI access to essential functions through external midi gear. Here are some key recommendations which I think are essential:

    1. Midi Program change receive!: vital for those of us who use pedals (or other interfaces) to toggle through songs/programs during live setups.
    2. Access to both quantized and instant mute, solo, and launch of tracks in song mode. AN ABSOLUTE MUST for useful/musical external mdi control
    3. CC button support!
      1. More standardized midi implementation: this one has come up in the forums already, but is very important to ease workflow and save time. Saving songs as midi templates only partially solves the problem. I believe this is a conversation worth having again, and more in depth with the community.

    I want to add:

    • External controll of kit parameters in "Entire" mode, i.e. filter on drums.

    And Global Too!!!

    Post edited by rcz on
  • 1
    duelinmarkersduelinmarkers Austin TX USPosts: 81

    @amiga909 said:
    seems to me at least midi CCs really shouldnt be remapped from 128 to 51 internal values.

    Important to note, though, that the mapping is only in the displayed value. There really are 128 values reachable from a gold knob or MIDI CC, at least for filter cutoff, but I suspect many or maybe all learnable params.

  • 0
    jurgisjurgis vilniusPosts: 12

    @rcz said:

    • External controll of kit parameters in "Entire" mode, i.e. filter on drums.

    PRETTY PLEASE!

  • 0
    VoltVolt Posts: 55

    +1 yes!

  • -1
    OszilloOszillo BerlinPosts: 14

    If it ever comes to complete standardised midi mapping of the deluge (which is because not existing fixed mapping is kind of a feature making the work flexible to map) i'd love if the cc numbering would be oriented on the knob matrix of the deluge.. So 'wavetable' would be cc99 counting the rows from left to right upward.
    osc1 would be cc3, osc2 would be cc4 and so on..
    Little problems then with cc123 which is "all-note-off" and can not be turned off to be send from (not only) Ableton while it would be TREBLE FREQ on the Deluge.

  • 2
    MPrinsenMPrinsen NetherlandsPosts: 136

    +1

    I’d like to have pgm change receive option for integrating DAW projects with it as well. So when I open up a DAW project, it will send a pgm change to the Deluge, which in turn will send pgm changes to all my external gear upon loaded. This will make total recall much more easily.

  • 0
    amiga909amiga909 SwitzerlandPosts: 793

    @MPrinsen said:
    +1

    I’d like to have pgm change receive option for integrating DAW projects with it as well. So when I open up a DAW project, it will send a pgm change to the Deluge, which in turn will send pgm changes to all my external gear upon loaded. This will make total recall much more easily.

    👍 yeah pgm receive would make the midi implementation chart complete (let alone MTC)
    nice idea, never thought about coupling daw and hardware like that.
    though i prefer to recall hardware with sysex dumps rather than pgm. which leads to another (slightly exotic) suggestion :) allow recording and playing back sysex via a Deluge midi track.
    loved to record single patch dumps on my old MPC and never care about overwriting patches on my synths.

  • 0
    MPrinsenMPrinsen NetherlandsPosts: 136

    Also, anti echo option per track would be great!

    Now I have some synths that make double notes or “stuttering” parameter sweeps upon tweaking a knob. This is because I have its midi learned to the midi clip that is instantaneously sending its midi back to the synth. These synths do not have a Local off option, or have other problems by activating it.

  • 0
    harrykaufmanharrykaufman AmsterdamPosts: 9

    +1

    Especially for the "entire" mode indeed, also to keep relative volumes of drums

  • 1
    KokaKoka NorwayPosts: 12

    Access to both quantized and instant mute, solo, and launch of tracks in song mode. AN ABSOLUTE MUST for useful/musical external mdi control!

    This is the ABSOLUTE must!

  • 0
    amiga909amiga909 SwitzerlandPosts: 793

    @Koka said:

    Access to both quantized and instant mute, solo, and launch of tracks in song mode. AN ABSOLUTE MUST for useful/musical external mdi control!

    This is the ABSOLUTE must!

    more midi learns is a must, yeah. instant launch via midi would be cool. probably with quantized input because very fast multiple instant launches could cripple the cpu.

  • 0
    KokaKoka NorwayPosts: 12

    MIDI MIDI MIDI!!!

    Possibility of outputting MIDI in Synth/Kit clips. For those who trigger image, light, motion, etc. and want to sync in realtime.

  • 2
    fenixsongfenixsong United StatesPosts: 11

    and/or the SHIFT key on the Deluge being Midi Mappable to midi note. This could open up a lot of these things.

  • 0
    KokaKoka NorwayPosts: 12

    @fenixsong said:
    and/or the SHIFT key on the Deluge being Midi Mappable to midi note. This could open up a lot of these things.

    This is the absolute MUST. At the moment it does not seem possible to midi-map instant launch of a clip, which is an obvious function - I believe. “Mappability” of Shift does not necessarily solve this in a convenient manner, bet anyway, upvoting Shift and begging for the ability to midi-map instant launch of a clip without cueing.

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