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Cloned track with same synth

9

Is it possible to have a cloned track using the exact same synth? So when you tweak the filter on track 1, this also affect track 2?

Because now stuff like cutoff is track specific and can be totally different.

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Comments

  • 0
    MPrinsenMPrinsen Netherlands

    Nobody?

  • 0
    llexamllexam USA
    edited May 2018

    Is it possible to have a cloned track using the exact same synth?

    Yes.

    So when you tweak the filter on track 1, this also affect track 2?

    Yes. But they cannot both play simultaneously. You can only play back the original or the clone, but not both at once. Any parameter automation will take over based on which track is playing (with recorded automation), and any edit to the synth or kit will be global because both tracks (clone+original) are referencing the same kit/synth instead of a copy.

    From page 27 of the current manual (v1.4):
    "However, it remains the case that only one track per synth or kit preset may play simultaneously..."

    Post edited by llexam on
  • 0
    amiga909amiga909 Switzerland

    There is a workaround described a few times by one of the regulars here (sorry dont remember right now).
    you can save a new synth preset, say track 1 and 2 both use preset 111. save one track to preset 111a and keep the other at 111. pretty straight-forward, however I didnt get it at first it depends on the preset number if a track is a clone or not.

  • 3
    MPrinsenMPrinsen Netherlands
    edited May 2018

    I think I didn't make myself clear.

    Let me rewrite my question with an example:

    1) I create a synth track and add some notes.
    2) I clone this track
    3) I start playback in song mode
    4) I hold one of the pads of the 1st track and tweak the cutoff from 100% to 50%
    5) I press the launch pad of the 2nd track, so it starts playing after the 1st track is finished
    6) Now the synth cutoff is back at 100%!
    7) Now I press the launch pad of the 1st track again, so it starts playing after the 2nd track is finished
    8) Now the cutoff is back at 50%

    Conclusion: the cutoff is determined by the track, not the synth.

    Please note: I did NOT record the automation.

    For some reason, it appears each track has its own synth, or at least its own values for some of the parameters (like cutoff and resonance).

    I did notice though, that when I change some of the deeper parameters, these DO affect the synth on both tracks.

    Post edited by MPrinsen on
  • 0

    I understand what you mean now.

    You're right, all the quick access params are tied to the track itself (not global).
    Great feature. It allows me to quickly switch between subtle variations.

  • 3
    amiga909amiga909 Switzerland

    thanks for the clarification.
    actually I agree, it is not clear for me either.

    cloned tracks are somehow only half-breed clones. params like synth mode or transpose affect other clones, params like cutoff not. likely all params assigned to a golden knob dont affect other clones. then again, for example delay type (via push function) changes for all clones.

  • 0
    MPrinsenMPrinsen Netherlands

    It is pretty hard now to tweak the cutoff on the fly and change tracks at the same time...

  • 2
    AndrewMAndrewM Brisbane, AU

    This is something I'd like to see where several tracks are attached to the one synth/drum engine. It's like the MIDI tracks where 2A, 2B etc all go to the one external synth :)

  • -1
    MatthewGeorgeMatthewGeorge Cologne, Germany

    The gold knobs are mostly track specific but the matrix is global I believe.

  • 0
    amiga909amiga909 Switzerland

    would be nice if somebody could shed some light on the behaviour of cloned tracks. can only guess, manual doesnt seem to say much about cloned tracks. maybe: when playing live it is useful I can tweak params in one track and it does not translate to other tracks.
    however, i wish i understood which params affect all clones. param learns seem to affect other clones as well. seemed to me that for example transpose does affect all clones if changed via sound editor, however if transpose is learned to a knob this is not the case. will try some more stuff.
    little bit OT cloned tracks have another big "problem": you get effect tail cut and note tail cut when switching tracks. which really is not a common use case - should work at least for cloned tracks. i've seen the effect tail problem is solved in 2.0 :) note tail (note release or notes overlapping the track end) cut is still there.

  • -1
    rohanrohan Staff

    For two tracks using the same synth, most of the "continuous" parameters, like filter cutoff etc, which can be controlled with the gold knobs, are per-track. But other parameters which have various options you can cycle through, like "oscillator type", will affect the synth across all tracks.

  • 2
    AndrewMAndrewM Brisbane, AU

    Rohan - thanks for the clarification! - But I agree it would be nice in 2.0 if this kind of continuous controllers could be linked :)
    I guess I like the idea of what I do to one track also happens on the other if it's a clone. Maybe a differentiation between a clone and a copy of a track and if I "copy" then it make a separate copy of the synth, and if I clone it IS the same synth.

  • 1
    MPrinsenMPrinsen Netherlands
    edited May 2018

    Yes it makes much more sense to me that all parameters are affecting the synth across all tracks. You can then still achieve a per track value by automating a parameter in a track.

    I often tweak some parameters on the fly in in a live performance. But now when I do this and I switch to a different variation of the melody, the synth "resets" which just sounds weird. I can't make smooth transitions between melodies while tweaking the sound on the fly.

    Would be a nice feature to turn this on/off per track (in a future update, not neccesarily 2.0 ;))

    Post edited by MPrinsen on
  • 0

    Did you find a solution?? I have the same problem!! it would be much easier for me to have a real clone

  • 0
    MPrinsenMPrinsen Netherlands

    No..

  • 0

    and too with my kit !!!the kit 0a is the same everywhere and I just want the variants I create a 0b for example...I do not understand the articulation..

  • 0

    I just created in the same song a kit 0B and I would like to transform another tracks in 0B also (both had the same name before) ... but the change was made ... it's called both 0B. but they do not have the same sounds ...

  • 0
    Mr_ForkMr_Fork North Dakota

    I can understand what you're saying regarding the clone and wanting it to have the same parameters when you make adjustments to one however right now what you are doing is a per clip automation similar to the way ableton session view works. Having that separate automation is really handy and I think it should be kept in some way. Have it so that either track view or song view is for per clip automation and the other is for global settings maybe?

  • 2
    MPrinsenMPrinsen Netherlands

    I think this has nothing to do with automation. Of course, when there is automation, it should follow that, and that's per track. But when there is no recorded automation, it still jumps to a different when switching tracks with the same synth. This is just weird imho. If someone wants that, he can just record automation or set a parameter lock in it to achieve the same.

  • 0

    Yes it's not for automation but for change kit song( snare for exemple) .I would like if I change my snare or a volume to my kit 0b it changes it also on my other kit 0B and if I do not want, just rename another kit ... it seems more logical like that.

  • 4
    amiga909amiga909 Switzerland

    yeah, that would be the expected behavior. all sound param changes should affect all clones. so a cloned track was just like a midi track routed to the same instrument. if i need specific params for a specific clone i can still record automation. thats the standard DAW way i guess.

  • 2

    @rohan said:
    For two tracks using the same synth, most of the "continuous" parameters, like filter cutoff etc, which can be controlled with the gold knobs, are per-track. But other parameters which have various options you can cycle through, like "oscillator type", will affect the synth across all tracks.

    Sorry @rohan but this isn’t the whole truth. Actually you should know about it, because there already has been “discussions“ on FB.

    An example (again):
    — You wrote: other parameters which have various options you can cycle through, like "oscillator type", will affect the synth across all tracks.
    => Lets take arp mode. from your description it should affect the synth across all tracks (it has various options), right? but it doesn’t. just the currently selected track is affected.
    — You wrote: “continuous" parameters, like filter cutoff etc, which can be controlled with the gold knobs, are per-track.
    => Lets take osc transpose. from your description it should affect just the selected track (it can be controlled with gold knobs), right? but it affects all clones.

    So there seems to be no logic. But even IF there is some kind of logic for you in the way you programmed it - it isn’t clear for the user. I think there are just 2 logically solutions for the user: Either all parameters will affect clones, or none parameters will affect them. Though I would prefer the first solution. I don’t know any sequencer which makes this so unclear like the deluge.

    Due to this I already destroyed some track’s sounds in my songs. Because the „random“ result of changing a parameter of a clone is just recognizable afterwards (because all the other clones are muted, of course).

    With all respects for your work: I absolutely don’t understand why new features joining a higher priority than deep problems like this (which seems to be ignored completely).

  • 0
    doodloodoodloo Lisbon, Portugal

    +1. At least a per-parameter documentation allowing us to know what's going on would be a good way to mitigate misunderstandings until it's fixed. Maybe opensource a bit of the code? It's 2019 ;)

  • 2

    From my point of view the main problem and confusion in song view is: a horizontal line isn’t representing a unique specific track. In compare to a common mixer view and also in compare to Deluge‘s arranger view, this is confusing and not constantly. In song view the deluge creates for each clip/variation/clone always a completely new track. If this mode just has been made like an usual sequencer (one row is one instrument) our problems wouldn’t exist anymore. That means: if you modify a track/instrument you would modify all containing clips/variations. Always.

  • 0
    NorisNoris Austria

    mk0, you’re 100% right - that would solve the problem (and many more)! If Deluge’s song mode just would work like the standard is (one line is one track and contains clips, ie like in Ableton), many problems could be solved.

  • 0

    +1 disillusioning issue

  • 0
    doodloodoodloo Lisbon, Portugal

    I think something clearly changed with 2.1 - before, a synth 10, 10a, 10b etc would not be allowed to play at the same time - unmuting a track would mute the others. I noticed that now, a 10a can play at the same time as a 10, 10b, and all variants.
    It's much easier as duplicating synth also was made easier with 2.1.

    Again, IMO the big issue is more about what is documented and what's not. What parameter is per track, per synth, per kit, per not instrument, is holding a track in arranger mode and changing it's gold knobs actually also changing the parameters "inside" the track, etc.

    Please either document or opensource. We all know what companies trying to make money over secrecy are - hype and doomed to bankruptcy if someone figures our the secrets. Instead, make money on originality and knowledge.

  • 0
    amiga909amiga909 Switzerland

    @doodloo said:
    I think something clearly changed with 2.1 - before, a synth 10, 10a, 10b etc would not be allowed to play at the same time - unmuting a track would mute the others. I noticed that now, a 10a can play at the same time as a 10, 10b, and all variants.

    nothing new for me, was possible before 2.1.

    It's much easier as duplicating synth also was made easier with 2.1.

    why u mean?

  • 0
    doodloodoodloo Lisbon, Portugal

    Well for me it didn't work like this before 2.1... Weird.

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