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Deluge over Push 2?

1

Had a Push 2. Sold it cause I needed the cash. Now I'm in the market again to buy one but for around the same price I realized I can pick up a Deluge. I've been using Ableton for awhile, it's been good but hasn't quite given me what I need. I tend to be more hardware focused, old school, and staring at computer screens has been turning me off as of late. On the flip side you can do just about anything in Ableton (perhaps the problem) so I'm kinda on the fence as to go Push 2 or a Deluge. Too, I've been considering perhaps going more hardware and thinking about all hardware live sets. Both options have their flexibility. Live 10 with the Push 2 looks real nice but the Deluge looks like the hardware groove box I've been waiting for.

Anywho...Convince me to go Deluge.

Comments

  • 0
    alien_brainalien_brain this side of common sense

    i just traded my feeltune rhizome LE for an mpc 2000xl and a nord modular. i wana sell the nord but theres something special about the 2000xl. its a beautifully simple piece of sampling hardware with a solid sequencer attached that features hands on manipulation of playback. limits are hard and force you to think outside the box. this thing is about hands on skill. ergonomics are distilled and workflow is iconic. i can see why it has the reputation it does. more more more isnt always in balance with a creative spirit. beautiful simplicity is at once accessible and deceiving, giving those with more skill, better results. the focus is more on the user than the gear, like it should be. maybe this is why it has such a following. and that sound is undeniable, very punchy and full of texture, almost as if the transients are lent an organic quality. audio coming from the 2000xl is not static and dead, its alive. but you better want that because its all that it does. im fascinated again. and with the sd conversion, i have another great place to dump sounds from the studio!

    i posted and you had to read it. get over it.

  • 0
    VondragonnogginVondragonnoggin California, USA

    My primary for 4 years now has been an mv8800 after 10 years of Ableton Live sequencing. I don’t miss staring at computer screens and a grip of softsynths at my mouse click ease (or controllers mapped). Its a very personal choice though. I like hardware. Its what I started on before 14 years of multitracking on PC including the ten with Ableton. The Deluge has kinda broken my funk of non-creativity for the last few months and after seeing the new mpc’s, Octatrack, digitakt, etc, still could not find a reason to get an alternative to my mv8800 until I saw the Deluge in action. As I get to know this thing, it just gets better and better. There is something about limits of hardware that I find appealing, but still the Deluge seems to offer a ton of things in an easy to use package. The immediacy of visual and tactile feedback plus small form factor did it for me. I’ll never give up my mv8800 or Spectralis 2, but have to say that the Deluge is rapidly looking like a “pry it from my cold dead fingers” machine. Very intuitive and even somewhat Ableton-like in function. More so with upcoming 2.0 release in June.

    I never had a Push or Push 2, but at least you could keep your software and give the Deluge a spin and probably sell it easy as it is becoming more widely known and popular after Superbooth 2018.

    I don’t miss the PC, but still use some multitrack apps on iPad for recording out of my mixer for a final take. Also use the PC for Adobe Audition to finalize and upload to my websites I have music on.

    I say read a bunch including forum comments, watch a ton of videos, the take your time deciding. Always served me well to research a lot before dumping out cash.

    Plenty happy I got the Deluge though. It is really a fun piece of gear for composing on.

  • 0
    HolidayHoliday Canada
    edited May 13

    So, what are the current limitations, aside from lack of velocity and aftertouch to the pads, that are worth knowing before purchase? How does it compare to MPC Live and Octatrack?

    Post edited by Holiday on
  • 0
    VondragonnogginVondragonnoggin California, USA
    edited May 13

    I never used mpc live or Octatrack because neither seemed to be the solution I was looking for.

    I can tell you that if you want velocity and after touch then use your current keyboard that has that for note input rather than the native pads. It accepts velocity and aftertouch messages from an external keyboard or controller.

    File browsing and sample preview is really great on this thing too.

    Hard to say what might seem like a limitation to you. I don’t find it limiting yet, but have only just started getting into it and so far have found ways to do the things I want with it.

    No visual sample slice seen on a display would be an obvious one vs something like MPC Live or even my mv8800, but not really a big deal to me as it can be done with visual feedback in lengths from pad lights and listening to the audio. I started out on hardware trimming samples by the numbers and listening so it’s all uphill from there on these newer machines.

    I am very impressed with the sampler features on this thing. Just as much with the synth and sequencer and the probability factor in sequencing being available and so easy to use.

    Today I am using 4 midi tracks controlling the 4 parts of my Nord Lead Rack 2x while making new sample kits out of the newly transferred samples I put on my 32gb SD card.

    All works pretty flawlessly. Using my 37 key old skool CBX-K1 midi controller keyboard that allows start/stop/tempo/program change/custom midi messages from the easy to see functions written on the case above the keys. You have to setup tracks using midi learn on the Deluge to get keyboard input, but it just takes about one second to setup. Really easy.

    Really is a creativity inducing machine for me.

    I had to come back and edit to mention that file browsing and sample preview is every bit as fast as it was in Ableton to me. Which is to say that it is about ten times faster than my mv8800 which I put up with cuz its a deep machine with another great sequencer and multisampler engine.

    You can create kits really quick on this thing. I also downloaded that batch of 4,425 single cycle waveforms to use for the oscillators on the synth. Haha - too cool. Easy to pick new oscillator waves.

    Post edited by Vondragonnoggin on
  • 1
    alien_brainalien_brain this side of common sense

    drawbacks are

    1 midi input, 1midi output.
    mirrored midi on usb
    only stereo output
    rudimentary effects
    tons of key combos
    12 track limit per song (clones and variations are included)
    tiny buttons
    awkward push knobs
    many steps to bring about a song change
    lack of a screen (not a deal breaker)
    manual that is unclear on several fronts
    no actual specs given in many instances
    no pitchbend or PC
    limited sample looping.
    no modulatable sample points
    focus on frivolous features (although im very impressed with 2.0 stuf coming up)
    lack of sequence control over stuff like stutter (not a deal breaker)

    Ian_Jorgensen

    i posted and you had to read it. get over it.

  • 0
    VondragonnogginVondragonnoggin California, USA

    @alien_brain said:
    drawbacks are

    1 midi input, 1midi output.
    mirrored midi on usb
    only stereo output
    rudimentary effects
    tons of key combos
    12 track limit per song (clones and variations are included)
    tiny buttons
    awkward push knobs
    many steps to bring about a song change
    lack of a screen (not a deal breaker)
    manual that is unclear on several fronts
    no actual specs given in many instances
    no pitchbend or PC
    limited sample looping.
    no modulatable sample points
    focus on frivolous features (although im very impressed with 2.0 stuf coming up)
    lack of sequence control over stuff like stutter (not a deal breaker)

    I disagree on first 10 as drawbacks and also focus on frivolous features. Hadn’t tried mapping pitch bend cc to my controller yet so don’t know about that.

    To each his own.

    You are needing to sequence more than 16 external instrument tracks? My songs don’t get that complex or I’ll turn an external instrument track into a sample if I run out.

    As always with equipment - entirely subjective and individual how we do what we do.

  • 0
    VondragonnogginVondragonnoggin California, USA

    How do you get 12 track limitation also? I just created a song with two kit tracks, one synth track and 16 midi tracks. That’s 19 tracks so far for the song.

  • 0
    jbone1313jbone1313 Tucson, Arizona, USA

    I don’t have my Deluge yet. Is there really a 12 track limit?

    Also, not being able to sequence the stutter is a bit disappointing. Are there any plans to change that?

  • 0
    VondragonnogginVondragonnoggin California, USA
    edited May 13

    @jbone1313 said:
    I don’t have my Deluge yet. Is there really a 12 track limit?

    Also, not being able to sequence the stutter is a bit disappointing. Are there any plans to change that?

    I just posted I had a song with 19 tracks, so no, not a 12 track limit. Maybe Alien_Brain is referring to tracks just using the built in synth.

    Or maybe it’s parameters recorded as maximum per track because that limit I believe is 12.

    Post edited by Vondragonnoggin on
  • 0
    Ian_JorgensenIan_Jorgensen Wellington, New ZealandStaff

    Alien Brain is referring to a 12 "section" limit in songs.

    Ian "Frivolous Features" Jorgensen

  • 0
    alien_brainalien_brain this side of common sense

    yep wuteva you call it. with 2.0 theres less to complain about. i think. havent tried it yet. its most def a step in the right direction!

    1 midi output and mirrored usb midi (ie, not independent).means that the data stream can easily get crowded if youre working with a whole studio of gear. which i dont know about yalls but i got literally metric tons of midi gear i want to control, all at once. timing can potentially suffer when you try to control a bunch of stuff using 1 midi plug. midi is a serial protocol, after all.

    but dont let me scare you, the beginner. deluge is a very nice buy indeed especially with 2.0.

    i posted and you had to read it. get over it.

  • 0
    HolidayHoliday Canada
    edited May 13

    I do have a Mio 4 which enhances my MIDI abilities. 12 section limit I am unclear about as from the videos my understanding is that there a no or limitations only by amount of CPU (which isn't exactly clear in definition). I do feel it should have at least 4 audio outs, or at least separate outs for the built in synth. Many steps for song change seems to go against the live performance aspect of the device. Limited sample looping I'm curious about.

    Really cool feature I wish it had which I'm sure is possible is multiple playheads that can play at different independent tempo divisions backward and forwards.

    Post edited by Holiday on
  • 0
    VondragonnogginVondragonnoggin California, USA

    @Ian_Jorgensen said:
    Alien Brain is referring to a 12 "section" limit in songs.

    Ah. I get it. According to the way it’s described in the manual, a “section” is the same as a “scene” in Ableton. A grouping of tracks that can be launched together simultaneously. You can pick from numbers one through twelve to associate your tracks with, then when that group is launched, all tracks in the specific number group will start playing when launched. 12 section limit. Ok.

  • 0
    VondragonnogginVondragonnoggin California, USA
    edited May 13

    @Holiday said:
    Really cool feature I wish it had which I'm sure is possible is multiple playheads that can play at different independent tempo divisions backward and forwards.

    Like Fugue Machine on iOS. Yes. Would be a very nice feature.

    Post edited by Vondragonnoggin on
  • 0
    VondragonnogginVondragonnoggin California, USA

    @alien_brain said:
    yep wuteva you call it. with 2.0 theres less to complain about. i think. havent tried it yet. its most def a step in the right direction!

    1 midi output and mirrored usb midi (ie, not independent).means that the data stream can easily get crowded if youre working with a whole studio of gear. which i dont know about yalls but i got literally metric tons of midi gear i want to control, all at once. timing can potentially suffer when you try to control a bunch of stuff using 1 midi plug. midi is a serial protocol, after all.

    but dont let me scare you, the beginner. deluge is a very nice buy indeed especially with 2.0.

    Yes, I’m one one those “yalls” that have a metric ton also. Running ten external synths off just Midi out A on my mv8800 and if the tracks get busy at the same time on many devices, timing can potentially suffer. A separate independent USB midi out to hook up a patchbay or breakout box with another A and B midi plug out would be cool, but for the price of the machine and size it is, I think the layout is pretty well done.

    While it has potential to be the centerpiece of a home studio with a lot of outboard gear, its portability is not to be denied running a mix of a small number of external gear or single multitimbral synth along with the built in synth and kit tracks with samples provided you don’t go crazy trying to play the midi “orchestra” all at the same time off the single out.

    Realistically and comparatively in both price and features, I don’t see much of serious drawbacks when putting up next to listed features of a digitakt, Octatrack, MPC Live, etc

    You could go as far as a second one clocked in sync with the first, only losing one midi channel, and still be within price range of serious competition and have your second midi out and 12 more sections. Still would be a smaller footprint than my mv8800 too.

  • 0
    VondragonnogginVondragonnoggin California, USA

    I would say the Deluge has many limits compared to Ableton Live and the processing power of today’s laptops, so comparing it to Ableton with Push 2 is not really a fair comparison, but that goes with any of the Elektron or Akai machines too compared to a Ableton and Push 2.

    That kind of setup has its drawbacks too though. For some of us, getting away from the PC or Mac tether is freeing in itself and working a machine that has limits can be rewarding too. The Deluge is the first major hardware sequencer I’ve bought that is still developing. I bought my mv8800 and Spectralis 2 well after production and updates had seized, so I have my limits with those machines and can’t complain about lack of features or wanting features implemented. They are what they are and that is a freeing thing in itself. No one to complain too and no point in complaining. I consider the Deluge to be in that category also. I bought it at version 1.4 with expectations it would perform as advertised for 1.4 features. Anything new they come out with improvements is bonus material. I thought it to be a great deal at version 1.4 features.

    I won’t find it doesn’t suit me later on, but may find something in the future that does more and buy that also. I tend to keep gear and appreciate the features I bought it for Rather than wish it was something else.

  • 0
    Ian_JorgensenIan_Jorgensen Wellington, New ZealandStaff

    12 section limit I am unclear about as from the videos my understanding is that there a no or limitations only by amount of CPU (which isn't exactly clear in definition).

    With the new arranger view coming it is unlikely there would be many people who would ever need more than 12 sections as now they really are for sections of a song, not repeated, whereas in the past when it was the stopgap song-mode, people needed to repeat sections so you'd go through that number fast - but yeah, its kinda a moot point from the release of 2.0. That limitation comes in the amount of easily discernible colours and after 12 it's hard to distinguish, but yeah, basically a moot point now, it would be very very strange if someone chose to program a song using a bunch of sections over the arranger...but I guess we'll find out soon.

    Ian "Frivolous Features" Jorgensen

  • 0
    HolidayHoliday Canada

    @Vondragonnoggin said:

    @Holiday said:
    Really cool feature I wish it had which I'm sure is possible is multiple playheads that can play at different independent tempo divisions backward and forwards.

    Like Fugue Machine on iOS. Yes. Would be a very nice feature.

    Yeah exactly! I have Fugue Machine and a Max4Live device in Ableton that does that. Pretty sure the Deluge could have this feature in the future.

  • 1
    minigoatminigoat cincinnati ohio usa
    edited May 15

    A daw has browsing...lots and lots of browsing...the screen can be wide and your eyes can wander all over it.
    The Deluge is something you have to listen to and use your hands with.
    Thats the point of a push, as Ableton could forsee the trend of computer screen fatigue.
    The Deluge is tight and focused by design. Make a track, theres your piano roll to be on your way with. Its feature set is pretty bang-on for any style.

    You can do everything with a push the deluge can do, if you take the time to set it up that way and focus on it.
    They're not at odds with each other, ones just a buffet thats 20 miles long, and the other is that yet-to-be trendy 24hr dinner that just hits the spot.
    In summary, get both. Ha
    I use both. Live for sound design, just cause i have so many racks and devices ive created over the years, i can get right to what i want, and then i can drop them into the deluge and remix it, resample it, make new synths and kits with it ect all in a hammock with headphones. 😎
    I sold my push 1 though, and just use a controler for keys/velocity.
    Not saying I would turn down a free push 2, though, but in no way am i done with my deluge.

    Post edited by minigoat on
  • 0
    HolidayHoliday Canada

    Of course I still have Live Suit and all my soft-synths to use. I had a Push 2 and it was great for working within Ableton's features. There are somethings that I don't much care for in Ableton's workflow however, even with Push 2. Too I found I still looked at the computer screen a lot and that lead to fatigue and distractions like Youtube cat videos. I remember when I learned to play saxophone, no distractions and I knew I did something good or wrong not by staring at all kinds of intricate visual data but by my ears. Though yeah, things like waveform editing, it's nice to have visual info like on the Push 2 or the MPC Live's screen. But yeah, I once had a Novation Circuit and it made hashing out song ideas fun and quick. I'm thinking the Deluge as a more fully feature upgrade from that.

    I suppose one of the biggest difference is that I can add any kinda FX I want on any instrument, any channel, (like compression on drums) in Ableton whereas with Deluge it would be, going back to drums for example, a matter of sampling in a kit that is already processed. However, going external hardware and a mixer and sequencing all of it out of the Deluge gives the same individual processing control. Considering how cheap synths and drum machines are these days, it's an attractive idea.

    Maybe I can work out something between Live and the Deluge, for studio work and live performance that gives me the enjoyment, workflow and features I want. Like hash out ideas on the Deluge, polish up in Ableton, then back down to Deluge for live performance. I just look at the fact that the Deluge is standalone synth/sequencer/sampler and works independently of any DAW while Push 2 is merely a nice controller for Ableton. They are both about the same price

  • 0
    DVBDVB USA

    I owned the MPC Live for about 2 weeks before selling it & getting the Deluge. For my purposes, the Deluge obliterates the Live in almost every area except sound -- the Live sounded fantastic & the low end on it makes the Deluge sound a little feeble but maybe it had a compressor on its output or something. The Live is designed to be a in-the-box production box so maybe they needed higher quality virtual instruments, DAC/ADC, etc. Seems like if you aspire to radio play, that's a good choice. But for what I needed (more experimental side), it was sorely lacking & not intuittive at all.

    I've bought a lot of gear recently & really appreciate well-designed gear now. I'm fairly new to deep synthesis, sequencing, etc (was more of a play it live, analog type guy before) & saw the huge difference between learning the gear rather than learning synthesis or sequencing. If you're not an MPC person already, be prepared to invest a little time in learning their workflow. You'll be up making tracks in 15-20 min with the Deluge & you can dive as deep as you'd like.

    I'd say the biggest limitation is the screen, which severely limits my ability to stay organized. I frankly have no idea what song 7 is on my Deluge without auditioning it first. Once you build a good pile of work on the box, it'll be a struggle to keep stuff straight. Really hope they get user naming, etc soon.

  • 0
    HolidayHoliday Canada

    So the converters are not as good in the Deluge. Other than that and lack of screen info the Deluge seems like a good investment.

  • 0
    VondragonnogginVondragonnoggin California, USA

    I’m using my iPhone notes app to keep track of song routings to external synths midi channels and patch numbers. I also use iPhone pictures I take to document my modular setups and patching or patches on any of my analog synths with no presets. It works well considering the small display of the Deluge and no option yet to name things. It could be added later and be easy with all those pads available. During file browsing, its surprisingly easy to read long file names and folder names.

  • 0
    minigoatminigoat cincinnati ohio usa
    edited May 17

    @Holiday ive not personaly compared them to the recent mpc live, but to a fairly lenghty list of gear, including a mpc 500, ive had over the years, im extremly happy and satisfied with the convertors on the deluge. An output gain and or master compressor would be great though. I run the deluge into an sp404 just cause i like the gain i get from it.

    Post edited by minigoat on
  • 0
    Wolf_GangWolf_Gang Seattle

    So I've been attempting to load 3 song length samples and get them to play back as back tracks so i can add other layers. So far no luck. I have the samples loaded in kit and have tried cut, time stretch, loop and once and can't get the tracks to play back all at once in sync with one another. Am I missing something here....seem like such a simple task.

  • 0
    HolidayHoliday Canada

    Looks like I'm picking up a Deluge. Is a compressor FX even possible in the Deluge engine? Only conflict I can imagine is if I run an out board compressor on the mains and I'm running drums and synth out the Deluge. Maybe I'll just do an external drum machine or Ableton drums.

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