Please familiarise yourself with the forum rules & guidelines

Open source firmware

1

I see lots of cool ideas here and as a developer I'd love to help out. Open source firmware is a major reason why I bought a Launchpad Pro and it always makes a purchase much easier. By letting users tinker with the firmware you'd make this awesome groovebox even more powerful.

«1

Comments

  • 1
    IcoustikIcoustik NorwayPosts: 478

    I don't think Rohan wants that tho. This project is his brainchild and personal journey to master his craft.
    From what I understand anyway :)

    I agree to both

  • 0
    roferrofer Posts: 6

    Yeah, I figured it's a long shot, but it's not like that takes anything away from the code that's written. If it's open-sourced then everyone can see what went into it.

    I know Novation open-sourced the Launchpad Pro firmware (which was a major reason why I bought it) and DJ Tech Tools have opened some of the source to some of their controllers, but I realize there's a big difference between open sourcing something like a MIDI controller vs. a whole groovebox like the Deluge.

    Still though, I can dream.

  • 0
    IcoustikIcoustik NorwayPosts: 478

    Yes dream boldly and brightly!

    Rumor has it that he's onto some superduper wizard code he's been developing for years, still perfecting it, and maybe he doesn't want to openly expose/share that, not yet at least :)

  • 0

    Certainly Rohan built the very first deluge for himself and has diligently included any subsequent upgrades-- but for all intents and purposes, he's a CEO of a corporation now. All the other deluges are for "us". I suspect in less than a decade, he'll be thinking about hiring developers, designers, engineers. Fresh eyes, minds and blood in the company gene pool. Synthstrom Audible must eventually diversify the product line because the current hardware WILL come up against some hard limits that competitor's "products-to-be" will eventually surpass.

  • 0
    IcoustikIcoustik NorwayPosts: 478

    Once he HAS mastered it, we'll see what he decides to do :)

  • 0
    StromerStromer GermanyPosts: 47

    Maybe it is possible to make an open-source "light" by outsourcing tables and parameter lists via xml or play text? Then you could edit the tables and lists for own cc-assigments, own arpeggio-patterns or color-tables (f.e.).

  • 1
    MPrinsenMPrinsen NetherlandsPosts: 119

    I don't think the Deluge needs open source firmware with a programmer like Rohan behind it. Just suggest your features and if it is a good suggestion, he will implement it!

  • 1
    dest4bdest4b Frankfurt, GermanyPosts: 96

    for a company like synthstrom .. where the code is the value of a company, it is not very clever to make it Opensource ;)

    Maybe it would be better if Bosch / Volkswagen would make their firmware opensource :D

    www.soundcloud.com/dest4b

  • 2
    amiga909amiga909 SwitzerlandPosts: 603

    dont think making Deluge source code public is primarily a question of keeping business secrets.
    rather a product feature you need to do right. sdk, documentation, training other devs, ..

    there are loads of devices that allow users to code. Sonic Potions LXR, Organelle, Korg littleBits, Anode Meeblip Minicommand, .. seems to me it does not really add much to the product value if u dont invest in custom additions.

  • 0
    roferrofer Posts: 6

    MPrinsen: There's two "problems" with your suggestion that Rohan will get to all the good features.

    1) He's human and only has so much time.
    2) What if I want a "bad" feature? Music is so varied no set of features will be perfect for everyone. I might want 10 different kinds of noise oscillators and some weird generative sequencer for my music. Most people wouldn't want that so it shouldn't be an official part of the Deluge and it'd be a waste of Rohan's time to implement, but if the firmware was open-source then I could add whatever I can program.

    For people who can't program the benefit is that you can access new third-party features and potentially pay to have someone add a new feature you'd like.

  • 0
    VondragonnogginVondragonnoggin California, USAPosts: 179

    I would think the problem would be support. Soon you would have 20 different versions and what are they supposed to do? Load up the person’s version to troubleshoot every time someone has an issue they think is hardware related but really issues with their own code?

    Sounds like a nightmare for a small company just trying to get out a good product. There are already some posts with confusion having issues with downrush and behavior of the Deluge. They don’t have time to deal with that. The number of dev’s releasing code as open source for higher spotlight products is rather small in the music gear biz.

    If I was trying to get a product out like Deluge, I would pass on that. Next thing you’d have issues posted on forums that the public would assume was part of the regular product when actually someone’s personal mod code and lose business by way of reputation.

    That doesn’t sound so good and in the end has potential to ruin things for owners if the business model fails. Full control of that in Synthstrom’s hands at least gives a reasonably consistent and finite set of issues to deal with.

  • 0
    flipflip CaliforniaPosts: 6

    Having an open source API with hooks for developers to add into the code is viable IMO. He can keep the main codebase internally managed but facilitate use contributions just like browsers have plugins. It's an attractive way to extend product life and build loyalty if the user base contributes. I'll take the platform model over constant replacement any day. The key from the biz end is to monetize the 'plugins' or 'plugin store'.

  • 0
    amiga909amiga909 SwitzerlandPosts: 603

    yeah, a documentation for the xml files would be cool though. having all data accesible like that is awesome and downrush, angularjs patch library and others showed that open source mentality pays off. would make it easier to develop and maintain custom software to have a technical documentation that keeps up with os updates.

  • 0
    jC3jC3 Posts: 6

    @flip said:
    Having an open source API with hooks for developers to add into the code is viable IMO. He can keep the main codebase internally managed but facilitate use contributions just like browsers have plugins.

    I would love this. A Deluge with Mutable Instruments' Clouds built-in...

  • 1
    moosiqpiplmoosiqpipl Frankfurt am Main, GermanyPosts: 13
    edited June 2018

    The source code is Synthstrom's asset and they are handling it quite well. So, there is no need for everyone tinkering with it and cause divergence of development.

    Post edited by moosiqpipl on

    ((qp))

  • 0
    o0_o0_ SANTA MONICAPosts: 106

    There's always seems to be this thread about open sourcing code for little boutique developers. unless it's their idea in the first place, there is no point asking.

  • 0
    StromerStromer GermanyPosts: 47

    Since the LinnStrument is Open Source (code on Github) i think it would be a great opportunity for the Deluge too - it could become cult status. The firmware is absolute genius, that's out of question, but sometimes users want to have unusual features cause they work in an unusual way. If users would have the possibility to add own features to the firmware it could be THE argument for many to buy a Deluge. And the hardware is unique, no one can rob it so easily. I for myself like to work with algorithmic functions. I now realize them with an Arduino but it would be much nicer to do this within the Deluge. Another example is the NI sampler "Kontakt" which has its own script interpreter so users can write custom add-ons and functions. I scripted some interactive sequencers for it and this script option made Kontakt my favourite virtual instrument.

  • 2
    amiga909amiga909 SwitzerlandPosts: 603

    IMHO there is a misconception in this thread:
    just making a software open source by publishing the code base rarely brings any benefits to the product.
    https://github.com/rogerlinndesign/linnstrument-firmware has exactly one contributor: the creator. might be wrong but there seems to no contribution ever from another dev for Linnstrument. cult status of Linnstrument has nothing to do with the fact the source code got released.
    does any1 know of a success story for a commercial product simply by publishing the code? can only think of gear like Xoxbox or other stuff that arised from the DYI community but they are not commercial products.

    being ready for 3th party code contributions has to be viewed as product in itself. a product that requires A LOT of initial and ongoing work. by offering a SDK which means you have a well defined interface for 3th party devs that usually does not involve changing things in the core. a lot of big products allow some sort of user programming: Kontakt with KSP, Ableton with MaxMSP, etc.

    so for the Deluge a macro scripting engine or an SDK to add new audio effects would be cool but IMHO much too early to do now, as the Deluge is still under heavy development.

    the only thing that seems reasonable to me by now: Synthstrom could start documenting and maintaining XML schemas on github, or maybe even release and maintain a Deluge specific XML validator. http://forums.synthstrom.com/discussion/1260/third-party-software-for-the-deluge#latest all these applications rely on the XML file formats, and i'd see a practical use for this. there has been a lot of intense reverse engineering to find out what certain values and properties in the XML do and it is a trial+error game to know if something changed in a new version.

  • 0
    VondragonnogginVondragonnoggin California, USAPosts: 179

    Rohan already weighed in on this in another thread asking about it. No plans for open source until they are completely done with their own succession of updates and have a “final” version. Then they might think about it but nothing definite yet.

  • 0
    OnoSendaiOnoSendai BerlinPosts: 64

    First of all, I want to state for myself that I really love the Deluge and every decision so far Synthstrom is making. Either opensource or not, it is not our business. But if I could place a wish for open source I would love to do it.

    That's why I was mailing to Roger Lin of LinnStrument, because I wanted to know what drove him to set the code open source and what obstacles or benfits or both he had/has with it. And I got a very nice mail back, where Roger explained a little about his experience, like for example the fact since he released the code open source the sales raised in a not very low double-digit range.

    I quote what he said how he programmer Geert Bevin describes open source in music products

    He sees it as the modern-day equivalent of the ability to take an acoustic instrument to a craftsman for alterations, something that is impossible on electronic instruments.

    And this spirit is something I think I have read as well in between the lines here in the forum from @Ian_Jorgensen here http://forums.synthstrom.com/discussion/comment/7644#Comment_7644 ;)

    So we should be a little bit more patient and more trustfull, because additionally I think all the time being in this wonderfull community I never had the feeling that the community is not heared.

    I understand the reasons why this topic on my wishlist is not on the agenda (right now). On the other hand I am with Roger and think this would boost this great wonderfull magic box much more even though it is not open source (yet)

    _PS: @Ian_Jorgensen if you like to read the mail I will send it to you. I won't post it here, because it is a mail from one person to the other, without permission to publish it. But I was allowed to send it to if you are interested. _

  • 0
    StromerStromer GermanyPosts: 47
    edited March 13

    For becoming cult status LinnStrument ist not long enough open source, to become cult it needs some time. On the other side, everything in the Deluge is in a similar way programmed in other machines, the advantage of the Deluge is that they put it all together in one box. So if one wants to rob code he can find lots of open source soft-synths and step sequencers online - no robbing neccessary. When i started my little Arduino project (which i will put open source when it is ready) i was surprised how many open source hardware projekts for Arduino or Raspery Pi exist.

    Post edited by Stromer on
  • 0
    amiga909amiga909 SwitzerlandPosts: 603

    Why do u think open source and becoming "cult" are related, Stromer?

  • 0
    punchedoutpunchedout United StatesPosts: 28

    Would love this also, but respect the developers decision to keep it closed if they wish.

    This is at the top of my list besides an OLED.

  • 0
    punchedoutpunchedout United StatesPosts: 28
    edited March 26

    @amiga909

    I think he means that the more open the device is, the more time users will spend building things around it and I would agree.

    If I spend a lot of time building add-ons for the deluge its going to make me think twice about moving to another platform unless it translates well and I also think other users will make the same migration. We wont be seeing open source hardware from Native Instruments or Akai so this gives Synthstrom Audible a chance to be THE open source hardware platform company. Many will abandon NI and AKAI as Synthstrom's product gets more and more viable because of all the additional user add-ons and flexibility in regards to a portable all-in-one solution. NKS and AKAI VIP do not include the community in a free and open manner. We have to use sounds.com which is not really preferable to everyone. All these roadblocks slow down small shops trying to do work.

    I would like to take the deluge in my own direction at some point if the developers ever feels like they have completed the vision as they see it. Or I could help others realize their vision and make it a side gig. I would also learn a lot about development from this work and it would help me immensely in my understanding (especially as it regards to hardware/software integration. I would be very grateful to the developers for sharing this knowledge because I consider this device comprehensive and elegant.

    Artists and open minded engineers must show society the strength of building community. A single ant could never build an ant hill in a meaningful timeframe, but open source work allows people to work as a colony of sorts. Hopefully the rest of society can follow suit after the meme of open source spreads further. Providing frameworks and infrastructure is what makes society better in my opinion. I guess the cult idea we're trying to convince everyone of is: The world is better when everyone has full understanding and access to knowledge (SCIHUB), then when only some people do. The quicker we can create feedback loops where one persons accomplishments are shared with the rest of humanity. The closer we get to star trek or total annihilation I guess, but I believe in the will of collection good intentions, just like I believe in the will of collective bad intentions like the predatory world we live in now.

    Open source ideology is a cult/faction of sorts. Hopefully I didn't go too far because I can certainly go deeper into the ideology.

    Post edited by punchedout on
  • 0
    muleskinnermuleskinner Bath, UKPosts: 121

    Just out of interest - can anyone name me a piece of music hardware where open source development has been of significant benefit?

    I know of pieces where developers have produced 'alternative firmware' (I own one of these) but the ones I can think of are all projects run by individuals who hacked the original hardware rather than true collaborative open source projects.

    Noise, Noodles and Doodles: http://bit.ly/mrjonesthebutcher

  • 0
    punchedoutpunchedout United StatesPosts: 28
    edited March 27

    ironically I didn't go searching. I just happen to stumble across this and came back to this post to find your response, but mostly I was just excited to share this:

    http://ixox.fr/preenfm2/build-it/thebuild/
    I think this forum post thread up how useful it can be in getting thing's moving:
    http://ixox.fr/forum/index.php?topic=69326.0

    This is going to be a fun little project and a great learning experience. Now if I could just build my own custom controller with the deluge as a starting point. Dreams.

    I don't have the time to do all the work Rohan has and men shouldn't have to keep re-inventing the wheel. I hope one day I invent something novel enough it lives on and is coded on beyond my years. Thats the point in my eyes. Contributing to the lexicon of code so we can form greater forms of emergent complexity.

    Another player in the game is https://mutable-instruments.net/

    The point is they offer products which are open source which enable heavy modification. I'd like a deluge with an OLED, pitch bend, and chord function. I'm willing to spend time coding it myself because it will help me learn development, will be my custom version and I can do my best until there is official support. This flexibility is huge going forward as the 'hacking' community grows.

    I don't know the limitations at this time, but thats the best part. Solving the problems and then understanding what changes need to be made to make the next iteration. Right now I'm just a tech savvy speculator. I'd like to be well knowledgeable without signing my life away for a college degree or putting in 10,000 hours on a task that another man already has fleshed out well enough for us to generalize.

    Much of the things you enjoy today on the internet run on many open source technologies. Linux is everywhere.

    It's not the end of the world if the deluge is not open source, I'm just really passionate about the ideology so I try to spread it everywhere I can.

    Post edited by punchedout on
  • 0
    OnoSendaiOnoSendai BerlinPosts: 64
    edited March 27

    @muleskinner said:
    Just out of interest - can anyone name me a piece of music hardware where open source development has been of significant benefit?

    yes e.g. LinnStrument. I was in contact with Roger Linn because I wanted to know, what was the effect to make it OpenSource. And he told me that he sold significant more devices when he announced it as OSS.

    Post edited by OnoSendai on
  • 0
    muleskinnermuleskinner Bath, UKPosts: 121

    @OnoSendai said:

    @muleskinner said:
    Just out of interest - can anyone name me a piece of music hardware where open source development has been of significant benefit?

    yes e.g. LinnStrument. I was in contact with Roger Linn because I wanted to know, what was the effect to make it OpenSource. And he told me that he sold significant more devices when he announced it as OSS.

    OK, but what I meant was what benefit has that been to the consumer? Any significant new features etc?

    Same with the Mutable Instruments stuff. I know his DSP has been ported to other devices but what benefit has it brought to users of his modules?

    I think OS may have open-sourced the Disting code (or at least made it firmware-hackable), not 100% sure about that, nor if it's brought any real benefits.

    Most individual synth modules are orders of magnitude simpler than the Deluge though.

    I'm not arguing these projects don't exist, it's just that I don't know of any!

    Noise, Noodles and Doodles: http://bit.ly/mrjonesthebutcher

  • 0
    OnoSendaiOnoSendai BerlinPosts: 64

    OK, but what I meant was what benefit has that been to the consumer? Any significant new features etc?

    I don't know since I am no owner or part of that community I can't tell. When im following the comunity here there are some developers who offered their help and there are people that start creating addon hardware devices.

    So there is a visible potential. I don't know of what these people are cabable of or what they could really achieve, but not using a potential ist just "not using" it.

    But as part of a different opensource project I can tell, that every offered hand is helpfull. Even if it is just updating the manual, or maybe translations or expanations or creating video tutorials on youtube (what people are doing .. and hopefully youtube fixes their search bug soon!) It's not just about coding, ist about the whole product, where people can help to enrich everything around it.

    But we should always respect the decision that it isn't OSS and that it may will be in some future. As a community we just can offer our help and our ideas.

Sign In or Register to comment.