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All parameter changes affect all clones

10

“Clones” means: clips that belong to the same instrument and play mutually exclusive.

A topic that was discussed a lot since i entered this forum. After reading a comment in the latest thread, i would like to challenge if this is what should be done. Did write a lot of suggestions to allow somehow refreshing presets. But - really it shouldnt be necessary

@Hotelsinus said:
,.. but i want to use it like the simplest way! like in any vst presets in daws, that affects all the patterns in the project ..

http://forums.synthstrom.com/discussion/2488/edits-no-longer-propagate-to-all-instances#latest

IS:

  • Parameter changes in a clip only affects clones if it is not a “continuous” parameter (assignable to a golden knob).
    For example Synth mode param is changed in all clips of the same instrument.

  • For kit instruments not only “continuous” params do not propagate, also the case for addition, removal and order of kit rows.

SHOULD:

  • For Synth and Kit instruments all parameter changes affect all cloned clips (including white instances in Arranger).
    For example: a Synth instrument with 3 clips, change delay amount in one clip, all 3 clips have the same delay amount.

  • Vice versa for kit rows

More related threads:
http://forums.synthstrom.com/discussion/921/cloned-track-with-same-synth/p1(Rohan reply)
http://forums.synthstrom.com/discussion/comment/9148#Comment_9148
http://forums.synthstrom.com/discussion/comment/9787#Comment_9787
http://forums.synthstrom.com/discussion/2008/how-do-you-reload-a-kit-after-changes-on-another-clip/p1

Comments

  • 0
    pfrfpfrf ca, u.s.a.Posts: 131

    I would hate to lose the flexibility of having different sounds (filter cutoff setting for instance) for different parts of the song. How would that work? So if I created a pattern for a break and turned the cutoff on the synth down, all patterns in the song using that preset would now have the filter cutoff turned down? I think I must misunderstand you.
    Maybe there could be a button push sequence that would mean ‘please apply this change to all instances’, but as a default that would bother me a lot, personally.

  • 1
    amiga909amiga909 SwitzerlandPosts: 811

    @pfrf said:
    I would hate to lose the flexibility of having different sounds (filter cutoff setting for instance) for different parts of the song. How would that work? So if I created a pattern for a break and turned the cutoff on the synth down, all patterns in the song using that preset would now have the filter cutoff turned down? I think I must misunderstand you.
    Maybe there could be a button push sequence that would mean ‘please apply this change to all instances’, but as a default that would bother me a lot, personally.

    if you want just one clip with a turned down cutoff you had to record automation for that clip. thats how it works in Ableton, Cubase, Reason, guess virtually any DAW.

  • 0
    pfrfpfrf ca, u.s.a.Posts: 131

    Different workflows, I guess. I love the flexibility.

  • 0
    amiga909amiga909 SwitzerlandPosts: 811

    @pfrf said:
    Different workflows, I guess. I love the flexibility.

    Cool to see a different view. I agree, in the end it is about conventions and Deluge goes a different path here, which isnt bad: its easy to modify an instrument per clip but its hard to modify an instrument over all its clips. I end up with more variation than i want but this isnt necessarily bad.

    Do you think there should be change concerning the clone concept? What do you think about these 2 points, valid for you?

    • I dont like some parameters are propagated to all clips, some not.
    • I dont like there is no straight forward way to align clones. Its possible to do manually but there is no sane way in a complex situation afaik. Some stuff is easier to align, like aligning loaded samples in kit mode. To for example align the delay amount in synth clips i currently create new clones and copy the notes.
  • -1
    pfrfpfrf ca, u.s.a.Posts: 131

    Yes, especially for new users I can see how this is confusing. I’ve taken to it, have integrated the idea, and I think it’s brilliant in its way. But of course in an ideal Deluge world I would like no clones at all, just easy copy/paste of parts and patterns, and access to all presets at all times.

    So although I enjoy this way of working, I would learn a new way if it offered more choice. I think, once the MIDI footswitch arrives, I will be altering my workflow again to incorporate looping anyway.

    I agree that it is confusing that only some of the parameters propagate. Having none of them copy to the clone would be just as strange and time consuming. I have no idea how to solve it, I would still dislike it if changes I made while working on a sound in one pattern changed the sound in other patterns as well. But I am along for the ride, whatever Synthstrom decides I will adapt.

  • 0
    rudolphrapidrudolphrapid Posts: 61
    edited November 6

    My understanding is that parameters that can not be automated are propagated through all clips of the same instrument while those that can have automation are unique to each clip. This is consistent as even a fix parameter value is meant to be sort of automation in a clip.

    Post edited by rudolphrapid on
  • 1
    amiga909amiga909 SwitzerlandPosts: 811
    edited November 7

    @rudolphrapid said:
    My understanding is that parameters that can not be automated are propagated through all clips of the same instrument while those that can have automation are unique to each clip. This is consistent as even a fix parameter value is meant to be sort of automation in a clip.

    True, i can see the technical side. But does it work for you? I dont think we can expect Synthstrom to fix "it" (as mentioned in the linked threads by me and others) if there is no shared understanding a) if there is a problem and b) how it should be tackled best. and c) if the people complaining just dont have the correct workflow.
    I can say i finished a track yesterday and lost way too much time aligning the volume between clips.

    Post edited by amiga909 on
  • 0
    rudolphrapidrudolphrapid Posts: 61
    edited November 7

    @amiga909 Good question. When I want to work in "DAW mode" it's annoying, you're right. But when working in "Deluge mode" I can get used to it (though still a bit annoying) :D

    Post edited by rudolphrapid on
  • 3
    rczrcz NYPosts: 55

    @amiga909 Yeah I find it really annoying. Easily one of my biggest gripes with the deluge.

    My suggestion like yours is that we make all parameters the same for cloned clips (DAW style) but add the ability to set constant parameter automation per clip as follows:

    1. While play and rec are on, automation recording works as normal.
    2. While play is off and rec is on, parameters are set per clip for the entirety of that clip. This includes from the pad shortcuts.
    3. The clip will keep the automated param value no matter the settings on other cloned clips (yay different filter etc between clips without recording!!) but now when you delete the automation on a parameter it reverts back to the non automated value for the cloned clip network. Or if none exist, sets the non automated value to the value of the automation that just got deleted.

    This way you keep the INDUSTRY STANDARD ability to make global adjustments to parameters on many clips but also easy set custom values on individual clips.

    Please poke holes in this idea but the way it works now makes it really hard to manage unless you know ahead of time exactly what the values for automation ready params should be (I don't!). Especially if you have many clips on the same instrument.

    I guess copy paste of MIDI and params separately would work too.

  • 2
    NorisNoris AustriaPosts: 32

    Yes, I absolutely agree. Honestly I sometimes think about selling my Deluge because of this inconsistent behavior (some parameters affect clones, some not). On the other hand I love my Deluge so selling isn’t an option. I really wish that Rohan would make the behavior at least consistent. I mean this:

    @amiga909 said:

    • I dont like some parameters are propagated to all clips, some not.

    @pfrf said:
    I agree that it is confusing that only some of the parameters propagate.

    But I also would prefer the standard way (as 99% of all sequencers are operating): ALL parameters affect all clones. That absolutely makes sense to me if I’m thinking about usual workflows (mixer style). And I don’t see any disadvantage, because you could (step) record automations if you want clips/clones with unique parameter settings:

    @amiga909 said:
    if you want just one clip with a turned down cutoff you had to record automation for that clip. thats how it works in Ableton, Cubase, Reason, guess virtually any DAW.

  • 0
    MaxOSMaxOS Los AngelesPosts: 33
    edited November 8

    @Noris said:

    But I also would prefer the standard way (as 99% of all sequencers are operating): ALL parameters affect all clones. That absolutely makes sense to me if I’m thinking about usual workflows (mixer style). And I don’t see any disadvantage, because you could (step) record automations if you want clips/clones with unique parameter settings:

    Totally. Or just create and save new patches in the sub-slots of you want to tweak the parameters.

    Post edited by MaxOS on
  • 1
    NorisNoris AustriaPosts: 32

    @MaxOS said:
    Totally. Or just create and save new patches in the sub-slots of you want to tweak the parameters.

    Agree, that is also a very simple solution which works perfectly.

  • 1
    amiga909amiga909 SwitzerlandPosts: 811
    1. While play is off and rec is on, parameters are set per clip for the entirety of that clip. This includes from the pad shortcuts.

    Interesting, havent thought about that. First i thought it could be confusing to charge "record-on-without-play" with a new behavior but now i think its a logical consequence. this way you can still emulate the current mode (means: set per-clip params) without having to set automation as step event.

    when you delete the automation on a parameter it reverts back to the non automated value for the cloned clip network. Or if none exist, sets the non automated value to the value of the automation that just got deleted.

    Yes, the change would affect the delete automation command, agree with ur idea.

    I guess copy paste of MIDI and params separately would work too.

    Yeah, extending copy/paste is a very nice idea. Could help aligning clones and answering another popular demand to copy/paste tracks across Songs.

  • 1
    staubistaubi GermanyPosts: 9

    I am coming from the modular world and try to use the deluge as an all in one synth. For me the current clone behaviour is a problem because unlike a modular the deluge mangles both melody sequence and sound together. On a modular the sound stays the same when you stop tweaking the knobs. When you switch to a different melody sequence the sound is still the same (Unless you also sequence sound control voltages).
    I understand that the deluges concept makes a lot of sense in many workflows. But it's in the way if you try to work like on a modular system.

    Here is a solution proposal from my perspective to allow both deluge and modular like behaviour:

    • The deluge is playing a clip and you are tweaking ound parameters.
    • When you want to to always keep the latest tweak to your current sound press "learn + select".
    • This switches on a "keep" function which is saved with the sound. The function is indicated by the left most LED dot of the 4 digit display.
    • When the "keep" function is on and you are leaving a clip the deluge auto saves the latest sound settings including parameter automation. The settings are saved to the same sound. No clone is created.
    • When leaving the clip and the "keep" function is off nothing is saved. You still can save changes manually before leaving the clip (in clones or the same sound).
    • Next time this sound is used it continues with the saved latest sound settings and you can continue tweaking the knobs at the same point where you left the sound last time. Having the "keep" function on would allow to switch between clips using the same sound seamlessly.
    • When you still want to save a clone you can do this any time by pressing "save + synth/kit" as today.

    From my limited perspective this would be a relatively simple solution to allow a continuous workflow. It would give full flexibility and control.
    Did I miss something?

  • 0
    amiga909amiga909 SwitzerlandPosts: 811

    @staubi said:
    I am coming from the modular world and try to use the deluge as an all in one synth. For me the current clone behaviour is a problem because unlike a modular the deluge mangles both melody sequence and sound together.

    yeah, in one of the linked threads somebody pointed out the same: clips are not simply control data, unlike e.g. Cubase where u load a VSTi and patterns only contain notes and automation. i dont know if there is any music production system that goes the Deluge route.

    From my limited perspective this would be a relatively simple solution to allow a continuous workflow. It would give full flexibility and control.

    @staubi yeah, a straight forward way to align clones would be an alternative to "affect-all-clones-by-default" and maybe more consistent with the current implementation. still i'd prefer the industry standard solution. 3 problems for me with "keep mode"

    • more complexity with keep mode
    • still a problem to align clips afterwards: i often dont know which params are different between clips, if i know beforehand e.g. delay time should be the same in all clips, its not a big problem to set it manually. my main problem rather is that i hear a difference in 2 clones and i want it to sound the same again. but i had to look thru all params to achieve this.
    • still a problem some params affect all clones, some not. "keep mode" would still require to know which param changes propagate and which not, means i still can get unwanted results when not in keep mode. i expect more params will be midi learnable in future, so it is not a list you can memorize once and for all.
  • 2
    staubistaubi GermanyPosts: 9

    @amiga909

    3 problems for me with "keep mode"

    • more complexity with keep mode

    That's the price for having the choice. It would definitely be another function to memorize. I tried to scribble a solution that can be implemented with low effort, is easy to understand and stays out of the way if you don't need it.

    • still a problem to align clips afterwards: i often dont know which params are different between clips, if i know beforehand e.g. delay time should be the same in all clips, its not a big problem to set it manually. my main problem rather is that i hear a difference in 2 clones and i want it to sound the same again. but i had to look thru all params to achieve this.

    You're right. My proposal does not solve this problem, but it helps to avoid differing clones from the beginning. A parameter copy/paste using the same mechanism as automation copy/paste could help.

    • still a problem some params affect all clones, some not. "keep mode" would still require to know which param changes propagate and which not, means i still can get unwanted results when not in keep mode. i expect more params will be midi learnable in future, so it is not a list you can memorize once and for all.

    Example: Last week I found out accidentally that the 2 oscillators transpose values affect all clones. Too bad, I need it clone specific. This area really needs a cleanup or at least more transparency which params affect clones and which not.

  • 0
    amiga909amiga909 SwitzerlandPosts: 811
    edited November 13

    @staubi thought about keep mode while using the Deluge. it would be cool.
    instead of press "learn + select" to activate keep mode i would propose long pressing the affect entire button.

    details:

    • when affect entire button is long pressed it starts to blink. when pressed again ends to blink and exits keep mode.
    • advantage: holding affect entire and turn Select knob already has a similar function in Kit mode. this current command would be replaced with the command above.

    about align clips afterwards: a good workaround for me is if i can save a preset in one clip and quickly reload that preset in another clip of the same instrument. there are already is the “Clone” option in the preset browser but it doesnt do what i need. instead of creating a new instrument i want to keep the clip as a clone. for this:

    • reintroduce the dotted preset file naming as it was before v3.0. so, if a preset has the same settings as the preset file stored on the SD card no dot is shown in the 4 digit display. if it is a changed version, a leading dot is added to the display. i think it was this way in 2.x.
    • add option “Reload” to the preset browser. Reload loads the preset as it is stored on disk and keeps the clip being a clone of that instrument. “Reload” is only available if the clip is a clone of the selected preset.

    both these features could be a very cool alternative to the suggested behavior in the thread start.

    Post edited by amiga909 on
  • 0
    rudolphrapidrudolphrapid Posts: 61
    edited November 14

    So what I don't get when such fully propagated parameter changes are requested: how the Deluge's feature of changing parameters runtime on clips would work then in song view? :) So how could you change volume, pan, delay etc. on a clip when pressing the clip grid button and using gold knobs? That would affect all other clips sharing the same instrument, I think, which is opposite to the intention how song view was created.

    I would also go for an advanced copy-paste methodology for parameters, if possible.

    Post edited by rudolphrapid on
  • 1
    manateemilitiamanateemilitia Austin, TXPosts: 50
    edited November 14

    What if when in the clip view of a specific preset, you select "Affect Entire Song" and it changes the value for every instance/clip of that preset in the song? This maintains the current workflow some prefer and adds support for control-oriented parameter changes that I and others seem to find intuitive.

    Post edited by manateemilitia on
  • 1
    amiga909amiga909 SwitzerlandPosts: 811

    Good point it also affects "clip grid button and using gold" in Song and Arranger view. If I understand @manateemilitia correctly "keep mode" just would be possible in Clip view. Doesnt make things less complicated, I guess.

    @rudolphrapid said:
    So how could you change volume, pan, delay etc. on a clip when pressing the clip grid button and using gold > > > knobs? That would affect all other clips sharing the same instrument

    For me it wouldnt be a problem if "clip grid button and using gold" changes all clips: again if you for example think
    about a DAW with VSTis, it is industry standard if it does: same as in Clip view, the concept is the same: you had to RECORD automation if you dont want e.g. changing delay for all clips, and just for one clip. Record automation: either twiddle the knob while record is on, or set a per-step automation event (hold grid button and turn gold or Select knob).

    Good point a workaround solution might be more consistent, and the suggestion solution might break workflows many users rely on.
    A workaround solution for the problem (problem: its hard to align clones) would be very welcome. Its true the Deluge behavior is not necessarily wrong, its just different than what DAW-savvy people might expect. It is possible to learn it, no doubt. It has some caveats, for example you have a Synth and a Kit instrument. Say you change volume: Volume of a Synth instrument is not propagated, its per clip. But the Kit volume (affect entire lit) does affect all clones.

    For every param change you have to think if it propagates or not, this is overhead. I dont like parameter progagation is tied to "unlearnable" params. there are many threads asking for more automatable params: in an ideal world EVERY param could be automated, midi learned or assigned to a gold knob. So if Deluge has more params learnable in a future version (which i hope will come) i have to constantly update my mental map of what happens to all clips when i change something. Really seems like a design flaw to me.

    So, in conclusion I'd still prefer "affect-all clips per default" as stated in the suggestion thread because it would remove complexity, no "keep mode" needed, no "Reload" preset, nothing. BUT it is a breaking change for existing workflows, thats a huge disadvantage and i wouldnt go the route to allow both behaviors via a global setting, absolute complexity nightmare for Rohan (virtually you had to test every feature with and without that setting).

  • 1
    rudolphrapidrudolphrapid Posts: 61
    edited November 15

    @amiga909 Good point.

    I think that in song view it's a performance-friendly feature of changing parameters on clip level. And this is also a good tool for applying temporary parameter changes on a clip which many people request as a new and missing feature (including myself until I realized how it could be easily done with current tools - and the suggestion of propagating parameter changes through cloned clips would definitely hurt this feature unfortunately).
    I think that a significant part of user base look at Deluge as a DAW in a box. Similar mistake what happened earlier by Octatrack (Ableton in a box). Even Ian also mentioned something similar in one of his ecstatic moments in an interview :) However it's not a DAW, it's far from being it.

    I think, Deluge is a clip based performance groove box, where clips are independent performance blocks of various instruments (presets), and each instrument (preset) can have only one active clip in the same time. That's the design principle behind it, that's my understanding. On the other hand Rohan tries to do the magic to make it work as a DAW-like sequencer, too, without hurting the original principle, and he managed to implement the arrangement view which turned to be a very great feature. On the other hand I doubt they will do an about-turn by making Deluge a DAW in a box :)

    Regarding parameters: it's a bit confusing UI that both clip-level and global parameters are present at the same level. For example all reverb settings are in the same column in grid pad though only amount is clip level while the other related parameters are global. This can be misleading for many users, I agree. A better separation of this tow groups of parameters may have helped the initial understanding and approach to the device. But I find it a UI issue. The principle of operation is there and it seems to me consistent.

    I still emphasize that a more advanced copy-paste functionality set would solve the issues this topic is about :)
    Like copy multiple parameter settings (not only for golden knobs) , paste to multiple clips (or paste to all clones or to clones on selected section in song view), copy-paste single/multi note settings, etc.)

    Post edited by rudolphrapid on
  • 0
    amiga909amiga909 SwitzerlandPosts: 811

    @rudolphrapid said:
    However it's not a DAW, it's far from being it.

    Yeah, I take the point Deluge doesnt go the industry standard way isn't the best argument.

    But I find it a UI issue. The principle of operation is there and it seems to me consistent.

    Interesting to regard it as UI issue.

    I still emphasize that a more advanced copy-paste functionality set would solve the issues this topic is about :)
    Like copy multiple parameter settings (not only for golden knobs) , paste to multiple clips (or paste to all clones or to clones on selected section in song view), copy-paste single/multi note settings, etc.)

    You'd like to elaborate on this? @rcz also brought this up. Yeah, it could work better this way.
    Details:
    By now we have
    a) Copy/paste Notes

    • copy: hold LEARN + press ◄► knob
    • paste: hold LEARN+SHIFT + push ◄► knob

    b) Copy/paste automation (for 1 param)

    • copy: hold LEARN + push golden knob
    • paste: hold LEARN+SHIFT + push golden knob

    If i get it right, you'd add an option to copy/paste that would copy all parameters, not just automatable params, and not just 1 param. Say "hold LEARN + push affect-entire" copies the instrument settings and "LEARN+SHIFT + affect-entire" pastes the instrument.
    If paste is applied on a clone of that instrument, the same would happen as what i described with "Reload" (clip stays a clone but gets all the settings from the copied settings). compared with "Reload" in the preset browser this has the advantage the preset doesnt need to be saved to disk. If paste is applied to a clip which is not a clone of that instrument, a new instrument is created instead. I think details can get a bit complicated here: for example a Synth instrument is copied and pasted to an Audio instrument clip or a Synth instrument is pasted in another Synth instrument and that old Synth instrument gets removed from Song view (even more complicated: if that removed instrument has a white instance in Arranger it should stay in Song view)..and so on. Hope you get my point, maybe you have an easier way in mind.

  • 4
    rczrcz NYPosts: 55

    @amiga909 thanks a lot for facilitating this discussion, hopefully Synthstrom see some merit in it as well.

    I see a few good solutions in this thread but it seems to boil down to what is default versus "extra action" behavior. My preference is to have the default behavior be DAW mode with extra action taken to differentiate parameters between clips. I understand preferring the opposite however and i don't think it would be that big a deal if the extra action was to keep a parameter change between clips like was suggested with Keep or Affect Entire modes.

    I know that for me on a particular sound I keep the vast majority of parameters the same and only change a few parameters between clips. Why should the deluge's behavior favor the exception to parameter changes rather than the rule? I may be in the minority here.....

    I agree however with keeping the ability to live edit different clips while a song is playing, I see that my suggestion of using the rec button wont work in this regard. On the flip side can anyone see the benefit of live editing many clips at once while playing? Eg you could sweep a filter down, change the part and sweep the filter back up smoothly.

    All that said even if this issues is never addressed it's in no way a deal breaker for the deluge for me. Just one of several annoyances that I don't quite get. Came from ableton, don't get me started on that....

  • 1
    MK_0MK_0 RPosts: 21

    @rcz said:
    I see a few good solutions in this thread but it seems to boil down to what is default versus "extra action" behavior. My preference is to have the default behavior be DAW mode with extra action taken to differentiate parameters between clips.

    +1 absolutely.

  • 1
    pfrfpfrf ca, u.s.a.Posts: 131

    Even though I use the current default system and like it, I think the idea that an extra action be taken to change a parameter on only an individual clip is good. To have all parameter changes affect all clips except when holding a specific button combination would be easy enough for users who like the current default and would be less confusing for everyone.

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