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PERFORMANCE ANXIETY - issues with the Deluge

2
WillWill Middle of NowHere, CanadaPosts: 140

Just spent a shipload of time preparing tracks and sounds for a live performance of an original track, to be done at an event.
I was just one of many performers, so I had only a limited amount of set up/check time.

One of the main components of my 9 minute track, was a vocal track, which I imported as one long audio file.

I spent over an hour trying to get through my performance (in a rehearsal) and **NEVER ONCE got through the 9 minutes without the vocal sample cutting out. **

Strange, because I had very few synth/sample voices happening simultaneously.
In some cases, my vocal sample would stop playing within the first 30 seconds of the 'song', although there was very little else going on - certainly should not have been an issue. Not a complicated song - very little effects, etc. going on.

Finally, I had to give up on the idea of doing a 'live performance' of the track on the Deluge.
Very sad and frustrating. I'm curious what similar types of things other people here may have experienced.

I really love this little box, but in order for me to perform 'live' in front of people, my gear needs to be really really solid.

Happy to hear suggestions or feedback....

Comments

  • 0
    pfrfpfrf ca, u.s.a.Posts: 94

    Frustrating!

    I doubt I can help, but I wonder did you import the sample into a kit or as an oscillator? If into a kit, what were your sample settings (once, cut etc)? Does this happen with other samples of similar length? Is your sample the native 24/44.1 or is there conversion going on? Is the sample being pitch-shifted or stretched?

    There are a lot of possibilities. Have you searched the forum to see if other users have similar issues? Definitely file a bug report and start a dialog with Rohan if you’ve done the trouble shooting and are still having problems. It helps everybody.

  • 0
    WillWill Middle of NowHere, CanadaPosts: 140

    The sample was uploaded into a Kit, so there would be minimal processing - no conversion - PB mode set to 'Once'

    I have uploaded a few hundred samples into my Deluge, but this is the first one of great length.

    Thanks for responding. I will file a 'bug' report as well.

    w

  • 1
    VondragonnogginVondragonnoggin California, USAPosts: 188

    Did the sample cutoff in time with other longest track looping?

    How long was the sample play time as a wav?

    Did you try cutting it into a few samples for performance after coming to this limitation?

    Probably if you send the relevant song xml and samples to Rohan, he might be able to figure out why it doesn’t work. Maybe email him and see if he can look at it. Support on the Deluge is very good.

  • 0
    WillWill Middle of NowHere, CanadaPosts: 140

    The sample length was almost 12 minutes.

    I later broke it down to a 4:00 bit, but even then, sometimes it's playback would stop before the end.
    I guess it's possible that at some point I hit the max processing/sample data streaming from the SD card, but it's really frustrating that there isn't some way to create a priority track, or sample.

  • 1
    cypher79cypher79 UKPosts: 155

    @Will said:
    The sample length was almost 12 minutes.

    I later broke it down to a 4:00 bit, but even then, sometimes it's playback would stop before the end.
    I guess it's possible that at some point I hit the max processing/sample data streaming from the SD card, but it's really frustrating that there isn't some way to create a priority track, or sample.

    There is a 'priority' pad on the Deluge, that can be set to low, med or high.

  • 0
    WillWill Middle of NowHere, CanadaPosts: 140

    @cypher79 said:

    @Will said:
    The sample length was almost 12 minutes.

    I later broke it down to a 4:00 bit, but even then, sometimes it's playback would stop before the end.
    I guess it's possible that at some point I hit the max processing/sample data streaming from the SD card, but it's really frustrating that there isn't some way to create a priority track, or sample.

    There is a 'priority' pad on the Deluge, that can be set to low, med or high.

    Wow, I hadn't realized that. Thanks so much.

    I guess I'll have to dig through the manual again and see if it resolves my issue.

    Appreciate you helping me out with this info.

  • 1
    Ian_JorgensenIan_Jorgensen Wellington, New ZealandStaff Posts: 228

    Hey Will, the "kit" this long sample was in, were there a bunch of other samples in the same kit? Yes, to troubleshoot stuff like this, just get in touch and send us the files, its partly why we added the "collect all" feature. Playing a sample is this way is very much within the Deluges capability and you shouldn't have any issues with, so we should try and work out what is happening.

  • 1
    WillWill Middle of NowHere, CanadaPosts: 140

    Thanks Ian.
    It was frustrating because otherwise, the machine has been a real joy.
    I tried having the long vocal audio sample as part of a kit (with other samples used in the track included), and then, tried a version where I had only the one, long sample in the kit.
    Neither of the options worked for me.

    I also tried to structure it so that vocal sample was the first thing that I triggered in the song, using it as the backbone.

    The sample stopped it's playback about 1 minute in, even though I had only a couple of other sounds happening, with very little processing (so there was no chance of exceeding a polyphony problem).

    It's possible that the issue was trying to stream quite a few different samples off the card at one time.

    Not sure.

    Either way, I ended up scrapping the whole thing - removing the contents from my SD card, and using another method to play the track at the event. Bummer, but not the end of the world.

    Thanks for contacting me.

    When I can find time, perhaps I'll try resurrecting the track and will update you to my experience.

    all the best

    Will Chapman

    Canada

    ;0)

  • 0
    IcoustikIcoustik NorwayPosts: 478

    This is what the priority setting cypher mentioned is for :) Set it to high to sacrifice other processing in favor of keeping said sound on at (almost) all costs.

    And on that note - as Ian was touching on, if you have too many samples sitting around in a large project, they will take up 'overhead' CPU just by being there, so try to economize where you can :)
    I'm told that this issue will be further mitigated in future updates, and it already has been imroved alot from before.

  • 0
    WillWill Middle of NowHere, CanadaPosts: 140

    @Icoustik said:
    This is what the priority setting cypher mentioned is for :) Set it to high to sacrifice other processing in favor of keeping said sound on at (almost) all costs.

    And on that note - as Ian was touching on, if you have too many samples sitting around in a large project, they will take up 'overhead' CPU just by being there, so try to economize where you can :)
    I'm told that this issue will be further mitigated in future updates, and it already has been imroved alot from before.

    ....All good info, thanks

  • 0
    VJFranzKVJFranzK Los Angeles USAPosts: 108

    If the sample were set to "timestretch" I wonder if would be different?

    also, you could trigger a copy of that sample partway through with a different start point ( to get a de-facto restart )

    I never would have thought to use one 9 minute sample. ; -)

    Music, Visuals, Reviews of Synths, Drum Machines, Apps
    YouTube: VJFranzK

  • 0
    woodswalkerwoodswalker USAPosts: 13

    Is there a length limit for samples? I've uploaded mine (usually a few measures) & had them cut off. I realized it was because my song or track itself was not long enough. After turning the horizontal scroll knob and increasing the amount of measures, I could reload the sample and it would be OK. But 12 minutes?? that would be like hundreds of measures.
    I'm curious what device you ended up using.

  • 0
    WillWill Middle of NowHere, CanadaPosts: 140

    @woodswalker said:
    Is there a length limit for samples? I've uploaded mine (usually a few measures) & had them cut off. I realized it was because my song or track itself was not long enough. After turning the horizontal scroll knob and increasing the amount of measures, I could reload the sample and it would be OK. But 12 minutes?? that would be like hundreds of measures.
    I'm curious what device you ended up using.

    I ended up not performing the song at the event at all. Bummer.
    As far as length, that wasn't an issue - because on virtually any sampler, you can play back samples even if you do not have a sequence playing. I my case - I found that sometimes the sample playback stopped after only a minute or so into the song, even though I had very few other 'voices' or effects taking up processing power.
    It was all quite confusing and frustrating. I guess I have to keep in mind that the Deluge doesn't excel at EVERYTHING, and it's somewhat of a work in progress (with the constant software updates, etc.)

  • 0
    amiga909amiga909 SwitzerlandPosts: 622

    @Wil cant reproduce it with a 7 min 16bit audio file.
    how much MB has your file? maybe the bitdepth and samplerate have a big impact on the upper limit you experience.

  • 0
    WillWill Middle of NowHere, CanadaPosts: 140

    @amiga909 said:
    @Wil cant reproduce it with a 7 min 16bit audio file.
    how much MB has your file? maybe the bitdepth and samplerate have a big impact on the upper limit you experience.

    the main file is 127 MB, 16 bit.

    Strangely enough, I reloaded everything and tried it again yesterday, and the file played through without any issues.
    Perhaps the recent software update (2.1.2) had an impact?!

    I'm going to try it again a few times, see if I can make it fail, or if it's solid.

    Happiness.....

  • 1
    bbcTM4bbcTM4 日本Posts: 3

    I'm sorry in the late reply.

    In my experience ,deleting files cause similar situation.
    You should avoid SD card fragmentation .

    After deleting files, you should save all to PC.
    Then, format SD. And restore SD.

  • 0
    VondragonnogginVondragonnoggin California, USAPosts: 188

    127mb? Have full songs mixed down to 16/44.1 stereo wav that are smaller than that. You said previously it is 9 minutes long.

    That is an audio track not a sample. Not saying it can’t be done, but maybe cutting it up and sequencing it would be more appropriate to a synth/sequencer/sampler that doesn’t have dedicated audio tracks.

    Consider samplers in the past and present samplers like the Toraiz and electron’s new sampler. There are sample length limitations on both of those new samplers. Even the new MPC has dedicated audio tracks for audio that is lengthy and would fit more into a full audio track than as a sample to be looped or triggered as one shot.

    I have a few samplers - Deluge, two mv8800’s, st224, Gotharman Little Deformer 2 expanded. Would only consider using a 127mb sample on my mv8800 and would do so as a dedicated audio track.

    If you can get it to work consistently then great. What a tribute to Deluge’s streaming ability, but to me it sounds like trying to put a square peg in a round hole. Sounds like it is an audio track, not a sample. I would cut it up and sequence it like samplers are meant to do.

  • 0
    WillWill Middle of NowHere, CanadaPosts: 140

    @Vondragonnoggin said:
    127mb? Have full songs mixed down to 16/44.1 stereo wav that are smaller than that. You said previously it is 9 minutes long.

    That is an audio track not a sample. Not saying it can’t be done, but maybe cutting it up and sequencing it would be more appropriate to a synth/sequencer/sampler that doesn’t have dedicated audio tracks.

    Consider samplers in the past and present samplers like the Toraiz and electron’s new sampler. There are sample length limitations on both of those new samplers. Even the new MPC has dedicated audio tracks for audio that is lengthy and would fit more into a full audio track than as a sample to be looped or triggered as one shot.

    I have a few samplers - Deluge, two mv8800’s, st224, Gotharman Little Deformer 2 expanded. Would only consider using a 127mb sample on my mv8800 and would do so as a dedicated audio track.

    If you can get it to work consistently then great. What a tribute to Deluge’s streaming ability, but to me it sounds like trying to put a square peg in a round hole. Sounds like it is an audio track, not a sample. I would cut it up and sequence it like samplers are meant to do.

    I hear you on all counts.
    FYI - I bought my first sampler (an Emulator 2) in 1985, and have owned quite a few others since.
    I'm fully aware of the strengths and limitation of their various applications.

    This track I had created was for a specific live event, and I just thought I'd give it a try (loading such lengthy audio) after reading something where someone else had loaded a bunch of long stems.

    I have recently been able to stream the 127mb audio successfully for the past few days, since updating to 2.1.2 - not sure what has changed, but I'm thrilled to have it work.

    Thanks for taking the time to respond....

  • 0
    WillWill Middle of NowHere, CanadaPosts: 140

    @Will said:
    Just spent a shipload of time preparing tracks and sounds for a live performance of an original track, to be done at an event.
    I was just one of many performers, so I had only a limited amount of set up/check time.

    One of the main components of my 9 minute track, was a vocal track, which I imported as one long audio file.

    I spent over an hour trying to get through my performance (in a rehearsal) and **NEVER ONCE got through the 9 minutes without the vocal sample cutting out. **

    Strange, because I had very few synth/sample voices happening simultaneously.
    In some cases, my vocal sample would stop playing within the first 30 seconds of the 'song', although there was very little else going on - certainly should not have been an issue. Not a complicated song - very little effects, etc. going on.

    Finally, I had to give up on the idea of doing a 'live performance' of the track on the Deluge.
    Very sad and frustrating. I'm curious what similar types of things other people here may have experienced.

    I really love this little box, but in order for me to perform 'live' in front of people, my gear needs to be really really solid.

    Happy to hear suggestions or feedback....

    JUST AN UPDATE ON THIS:

    I'm not sure if it's because of the recent (2.1.2) software update - but I am now able to play back this very long audio without any issues.

    Happiness!!!!

  • 0
    WillWill Middle of NowHere, CanadaPosts: 140

    @Will said:
    Just spent a shipload of time preparing tracks and sounds for a live performance of an original track, to be done at an event.
    I was just one of many performers, so I had only a limited amount of set up/check time.

    One of the main components of my 9 minute track, was a vocal track, which I imported as one long audio file.

    I spent over an hour trying to get through my performance (in a rehearsal) and **NEVER ONCE got through the 9 minutes without the vocal sample cutting out. **

    Strange, because I had very few synth/sample voices happening simultaneously.
    In some cases, my vocal sample would stop playing within the first 30 seconds of the 'song', although there was very little else going on - certainly should not have been an issue. Not a complicated song - very little effects, etc. going on.

    Finally, I had to give up on the idea of doing a 'live performance' of the track on the Deluge.
    Very sad and frustrating. I'm curious what similar types of things other people here may have experienced.

    I really love this little box, but in order for me to perform 'live' in front of people, my gear needs to be really really solid.

    Happy to hear suggestions or feedback....

    GOT IT TO WORK!! (It's been solid since the recent 2.1.2 software update)

    Thrilled!
    Much respect and gratitude to Synthstrom for their continued support, development, refinements

  • 0
    WillWill Middle of NowHere, CanadaPosts: 140

    @Ian_Jorgensen said:
    Hey Will, the "kit" this long sample was in, were there a bunch of other samples in the same kit? Yes, to troubleshoot stuff like this, just get in touch and send us the files, its partly why we added the "collect all" feature. Playing a sample is this way is very much within the Deluges capability and you shouldn't have any issues with, so we should try and work out what is happening.

    GOT IT TO WORK!! (It's been solid since the recent 2.1.2 software update)

    Thrilled!
    Much respect and gratitude to Synthstrom for their continued support, development, refinements

  • 0
    IcoustikIcoustik NorwayPosts: 478

    Good to hear! Yes as I thought and had heard it was related to a bug and not normal operation :) :)

  • 0
    spawnkissspawnkiss tkarontoPosts: 11

    I'm having a similar issue with longer song stems. I have 2 stereo stems running at 24bit/48kHz aif. A full "track" at the same specs in another project works fine.

    Any thought anyone? It cuts out around 52 bars, the 2 stems are both "high" priority with nothing else playing or running.

  • 0
    spawnkissspawnkiss tkarontoPosts: 11

    @spawnkiss said:
    I'm having a similar issue with longer song stems. I have 2 stereo stems running at 24bit/48kHz aif. A full "track" at the same specs in another project works fine.

    Any thought anyone? It cuts out around 52 bars (82 bpm), the 2 stems are both "high" priority with nothing else playing or running.

    Just bounced the same section (stems) down to 16/44.1 and it worked.

    2 Questions -
    1. Why is it that a longer single instrumental at 24bit/48kHz aif can play through on another project while the two shorter can't run on this one?

    1. I'm now running a project where most of the stemmed out "loops" are running at 24bit/48kHz aif but I have one longer section that I'm forced to run at 16/44.1 - is it the bit rate or the sample rate that is causing the memory overload? Will this be fixed so we can run the same parts at the same quality as shorter loops?

    @Ian_Jorgensen ? Anyone.

    Thanks! This is a great machine I'm just having to find a bunch of work arounds to make performance easier, but some of them as seen has lead to reduced audio quality.

    K

  • 0
    darenagerdarenager Between a rack and a hardware placePosts: 152

    @Vondragonnoggin said:

    That is an audio track not a sample. Not saying it can’t be done, but maybe cutting it up and sequencing it would be more appropriate to a synth/sequencer/sampler that doesn’t have dedicated audio tracks.

    Deluge has been marketed as being able to play stems so I don’t get why you would think it necessary to cut up the file?

    I have not experimented with large audio files myself yet, but I think 44.1khz at 16bit should play back fine, and it seems to be the case on a few demos I have seen showing such useage.

    Anyway glad to hear the OP got it working.

  • 0
    darenagerdarenager Between a rack and a hardware placePosts: 152

    @spawnkiss 2 24bit files at 48khz is a much more demanding data rate than 2 16bit files at 44.1khz, 16/44.1 is 1411kbps, 24/48 is 2304kbps assuming stereo files. These are well within the SD cards data rate, but the Deluge obviously is the bottleneck here, as it is doing lots of other things aside from just reading data from the card.

  • 1
    Ian_JorgensenIan_Jorgensen Wellington, New ZealandStaff Posts: 228

    So the Deluge isn't really 'optimised' as a stems player, it is more that it 'can' play stems - more as a by-product of streaming than an intended addition, we don't really push this as a recommended workflow as yes, you are going to hit limits faster than otherwise. There is no point using wav files beyond 44.1/16 as there will be no aural benefit but the processing will be impacted as the Deluge will need to be adjusting the sample rate accordingly and using CPU to do so - effectively the same as time-stretching which is the most CPU intensive process on the deluge.
    That said, I've got a song on my deluge with 16x 4min 44.1 (stem) wav files that plays fine and i can affect and mess with no problem, so a 'typical' usage is easily acheivable.

  • 0
    darenagerdarenager Between a rack and a hardware placePosts: 152

    Thanks for the info @Ian_Jorgensen 16 stems is impressive, I doubt I would have the need for more than a couple at a time, but I’d be interested to know more about simultaneous samples/stems/synth voices and how these impact performance and realistic limits. Obviously there comes a point where too much stuff happening at once is both not musically useful and also too much hassle to keep track of with a single project, personally I have yet to come across any issues of the Deluge struggling, but it would be good to have some benchmarks and if possible some pointers how to mitigate any possible bottlenecks. Thanks for confirmation about using 44.1/16bit I think this is perfectly reasonable and good enough quality anyway, is there any benefit of using mono samples when stereo isn’t required like for example drum samples? I suspect so but it would be good to know for sure.

  • 0
    STILETTISTILETTI HELSINKIPosts: 2

    I have a lot of stems for my live set (some of them 10 minute drones etc) in my deluge and only once have I had issues with playback. On top of the stems I have regular kit + midi&cv tracks. I usually set the longer stems so that I have one long stem per kit/track and the stem sample set as loop. 16bit441k wavs and everything works just fine.

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